Civil Asset Forfeiture

[fla tom]

War on drugs, war on terror, war on (fill in the blank) are all just another way to get the masses to relinquish rites (in the name of safety)peacefully.

[focker]

We had a good discussion on this same subject just a few months ago:
http://www.irv2.com/forums/f92/im-sh...on-223299.html

[maypo050770]

I posted this mostly to educate people on the subject. The aforementioned thread was closed eventually as it started to get a bit political. Please don't do that here. I would like to see this run a bit. I'm especially interested in the opinions of law enforcement and or lawyers. A friend of mine's husband is a police officer in NJ and he was barely aware of this practice. In other towns or states I believe Civil Asset Forfeiture is being severely abused. Interestingly enough I was pulled over last year for a tail light that was out in Roxbury NJ and the officer at one point or another asked me if I had a large amount of cash on me which I thought nothing of at that present moment and answered no because I don't have a large amount of cash anywhere lol. Today, knowing what I know that would have went a lot differently and sadly Its pretty safe to say I probably would have been stuck there for hours getting my vehicle searched but as far as I'm concerned they have no business asking me that.

[Clayobx]

This practice is not new. Volusia county, FL., had a sheriff by the name of Bob Vogel that used "profiling" as a method of illegally stopping persons of different ethnicities along I 95 in the 1980's. The dept. acquired multiple million dollar helicopters, cars, equipment and as discovered later, dollars in certain high ranking officers pockets. It became a case study of constitional law at the prestigious Stetson Law school. This went along well until the wrong dignitary was stopped and filed a law suit coupled with many other innocent victims. The result no more Vogel or his compatriot's. I'd venture to say this practice is used at a much higher level due to the nature of home land security laws.

[mhudson]

Yep, lived and worked in Port Orange FL. during that time. They would post "vehicle inspection ahead" signs on 95 Southbound just past the Port Orange exit, ahead of the maintenance crossover to the rest area on the Northbound lanes. Heavy trees in the median there and they sat on the and Northbound side and waited for anybody that made the U-turn there. I'm about as conservative as they come but,
"that ain't right".

[Mike and Cha]

The reason this sounds insane is because it is...Most of what is being reported here is urban legend and has not happened to anyone on this forum. This is sit around the campfire talk, and "be careful because it happened to a friend of a friend...of mine". Unless you are hanging out with KNOWN Drug traffickers who are being watched by the variety of LEO's that work Narcotic Enforcement, and are carrying in excess of $20,000 dollars, with no ability whatsoever to show where it came from, IE you have a job, cash for business you own, ect, or having a reasonable explanation for carrying that much, then you have absolutely nothing to worry about. They are not looking for you and will never likely search your MH to find it unless you are involved in criminal activity, or associating with those who are involved in Narcotic Trafficking. This has been so blown out of proportion over the years that I can see where some start to believe what they hear. But if you actually befriend someone who has had their regular old non drug trafficking MH and assets seized by US Law Enforcement, then I would start looking for new friends because you aren't getting the whole story.

[sknight]

At the risk of this becoming too political, it's them carefully circumventing the fourth amendment. They use pressure and assumed superior knowledge of the law to convince you to allow them to search, which then they seize, again usually with the threat of arrest.

If they request a search, demand to know what reason they have to search. Demand to have a warrant, demand to have a supervisor on scene once they demand a search.

Keep asking them, what crime am I suspected of committing? What crime am I accused of? What legal reason do you have to enter my vehicle without my permission?

Do not give them permission. At all. Not if they ask about firearms or money or where you got your camper or what you had for dinner, it's fishing for answers that will give them probable cause to enter your property.

I have the utmost respect for law enforcement, but they have to respect our rights as citizens also. I'm not doing anything illegal or have anything to hide, but they have nothing to search for either. Show me a legal warrant and I'll hold the door open for them. But just demand it because of a faulty tail light, not going to happen.

[Mike and Cha]

Originally Posted by sknight

At the risk of this becoming too political, it's them carefully circumventing the fourth amendment. They use pressure and assumed superior knowledge of the law to convince you to allow them to search, which then they seize, again usually with the threat of arrest.

If they request a search, demand to know what reason they have to search. Demand to have a warrant, demand to have a supervisor on scene once they demand a search.

Keep asking them, what crime am I suspected of committing? What crime am I accused of? What legal reason do you have to enter my vehicle without my permission?

Do not give them permission. At all. Not if they ask about firearms or money or where you got your camper or what you had for dinner, it's fishing for answers that will give them probable cause to enter your property.

I have the utmost respect for law enforcement, but they have to respect our rights as citizens also. I'm not doing anything illegal or have anything to hide, but they have nothing to search for either. Show me a legal warrant and I'll hold the door open for them. But just demand it because of a faulty tail light, not going to happen.

Ok and with all due respect, and I do agree with some of what you post here re letting anyone search your vehicle. But, this will most likely never happen to the honest law abiding MH'ing citizen. Without giving up some of the info that could get into the wrong hands on how investigations take place, these stops are generally not made(unless you live in an area where LE is blatantly corrupt) without probable cause. In most cases the way it is done is part of a bigger investigation, but doing it thru asset forfeiture gives LE the ability to continue the investigation without divulging the probable cause. I can assure you that with each and every seizure, there was probable cause on it's own ground to make the initial stop and they knew what and who they were looking at prior to the stop or seizure being made, and they were not making the stop for a faulty light and then going that far as to ask to search on a fishing expedition. If that has happened to you and you are an honest law abiding citizen, then I would be more careful with who you are befriending and or associating with.

[maypo050770]

Originally Posted by Mike and Cha

The reason this sounds insane is because it is...Most of what is being reported here is urban legend and has not happened to anyone on this forum. This is sit around the campfire talk, and "be careful because it happened to a friend of a friend...of mine". Unless you are hanging out with KNOWN Drug traffickers who are being watched by the variety of LEO's that work Narcotic Enforcement, and are carrying in excess of $20,000 dollars, with no ability whatsoever to show where it came from, IE you have a job, cash for business you own, ect, or having a reasonable explanation for carrying that much, then you have absolutely nothing to worry about. They are not looking for you and will never likely search your MH to find it unless you are involved in criminal activity, or associating with those who are involved in Narcotic Trafficking. This has been so blown out of proportion over the years that I can see where some start to believe what they hear. But if you actually befriend someone who has had their regular old non drug trafficking MH and assets seized by US Law Enforcement, then I would start looking for new friends because you aren't getting the whole story.

I whole hardheartedly disagree. I have provided 5 links below, all very reputable sources. Each one of these stories happened. I'll be the first to admit the news can be one sided but I think it is safe to say this is not urban legend. Even Canada has put out a travel bulletin saying not to travel with large amounts of cash in the US. The last link is a PDF documenting Civil Asset Forfeiture abuse and is on the legislatures web site.
Another civil asset forfeiture outrage - The Washington Post
Stopping the abuse of civil forfeiture - The Washington Post
Taken - The New Yorker
Iowa Civil Asset Forfeiture Case Gets National Attention | whotv.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kEp...s&noredirect=1

http://www.leg.state.nv.us/Session/7...D/SJUD305I.pdf

[Old Car Nut]

We get the government we vote for/allow. Period. Thats as political as I will go on here.

Carrying large amounts of cash is foolhardy at best. A few hundred bucks in pocket is more than enough to cover any "cash only" transactions or at least a deposit while you acquire more. This will keep you from having your rig and cash seized.

If you must travel with large amounts of cash, keep your lips sealed about it. You sure don't want to reveal that online. Good grief!! Don't flash your cash either. Leave the safety of your rig ONLY with what you need.

I rarely have more than $20 in my wallet despite having the legal means to protect myself from would be bad guys. Be advised, know the law about this issue as well.

As for Mexico, I will not cross that border for any reason.

[RichK]

Originally Posted by maypo050770

I whole hardheartedly disagree. I have provided 5 links below

I'm as concerned about this as anyone, however there's a common theme in most of these types of stories. Also, 2 of the links are about the same story - the poker players carrying cash.

The poker players had some pot and a pipe, and lots of cash. There was a football player recently that had more than 100K and 2 pounds of marijuana that got his money taken too. One of your other stories they were carrying a glass pipe 'for a gift'.

In most cases, people are being stupid. They're smoking pot while driving, or carrying pot in a state where it's a really bad idea to do so.

The first article is pretty biased - they say the police dog 'alerted' and then go on to say how often dogs will falsely alert - but in this case the dog found some weed and a grinder and a pipe - so clearly it was a positive alert.

Note that the drivers looked nervous - the article surmises that it's because they were pulled over, but it's more likely that they smoked some weed and drove - the officer could tell they were high, called for backup with a drug dog, found the weed, then found the money.

I think if you don't drive around with illegal drugs in your vehicle this is very unlikely to happen to you.

[wnytaxman]

I have to agree with Rich that these incidents are few and far between and seem to be consistent with people that most of us would find to be suspicious. I would hesitate to take a great deal of cash with me for any reason out of fear of those who would break the law, not those who are sworn to uphold it.

The abuses of the IRS are real. We have seen a major swing in the attitude of the IRS here in Buffalo to be one of bureaucratic vigilantism rather than enforcement of the law. I can't say what other parts of the US may be encountering, but here it is not an experience that would give one a feeling of confidence. Yes we do have the right of appeal but that process is long and can be very expensive. We have one case in Appeals right now that is going on three years.

[Mike and Cha]

Ok believe whatever you want to believe, the problem is the media doesn't get the whole story when questioned because LE isn't going to give up their strategy as to how the drug traffickers are worked. So the media prints up a bunch of whatever(usually not the whole story) that scares normal honest law abiding citizens to "demand" answers. Then whenever the media is found to be putting out bad or misinformed info they just move on to the next thing to start a problem about, they rarely go back and admit they were wrong or let the population know what really occurred and in this situation it will never happen, as they will never get the whole story. This happens on all types of incidents where confidential info cannot be shared to protect the integrity of an investigation or upcoming trial ect., not just Drug trafficking or other legal issues. And all those directly involved in the case will get the whole story thru the court system, it's just that you(the honest law abiding citizen) will not be privy to it as you have no need or right to know. You could always talk to the criminals who get prosecuted and hear their story if they will share with you, and then you could decide for yourself on which side you trust.


LE is not looking for you, the honest law abiding person who worked in an honest job, making honest money and saving to buy their life's dream and go out on the road RV'ing. If only the real story could be told you would feel a little foolish for thinking they are looking at you for carrying $200 cash in your pocket while traveling. A little paranoid but if you believe everything the media puts out think about it, do you really want to leave home, I wouldn't.


And just to make an example it is usually a stop of any kind where hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars are found, and there is no explanation of how it got there by the occupants of whatever was entered, ie house, car, MH ect.. LE knew the money was in there before the stop was made, and they don't have the time or resources, or desire to waste stopping RV's on a fishing expedition. Maybe they should just let them go and forgo the war on drugs. This happens daily in motel rooms, boat, cars, planes ect. And every time the drug traffickers figure out how LE is catching them they find other ways to move the narcotics or the money.

[Bigd9]

You know I work with law enforcement from federal, to state, to county to local every time I go on an assignment to a disaster area. In all of my 14 years doing this job I've never run into a single officer who seriously looked like they were out to get someone for no reason. They have enough to do going after crimes and don't really need to bother law abiding citizens. I did have a female New Jersey State Trooper threaten to put me into the "slammer or pokey" once, but that was only after I told her I was thinking of giving my wife a microwave for Christmas! Oh and there was a local officer in Biloxi, Ms who threatened to take me to jail if I didn't immediately take my team and vacate a parking lot, but after explaining things to him he relented and asked if there was anything he could do to help. These are good people trying to do a good job during trying times.

Shoot, just last week I walked into a local sheriff's office and asked to be fingerprinted. I had to renew my security clearance and FBI fingerprinting is mandatory on a scheduled basis. The sheriff took one look at me and said "ya know son, that is the first time I've had a harden criminal walk into my office wanting to get printed" imitating John Wayne (The Duke) famous draw! I was old enough to be his father....probably grandfather... for crying out loud. These guys and gals are just like you and me. Out to do a good job and have a little fun. After he fingerprinted me he said he was off duty and heading to a local PTA group to give a talk about children and the internet. In any group of average citizens there are bound to be a few bad apples. Don't focus on them but thank the good ones who serve you every day weather you know it or not.
I believe we live in a great country, filled with great people. Don't believe everything you see on TV.

Ok ok I'll step off my soap box now and let the flames begin