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Old 02-28-2015, 11:50 AM   #85
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Old 02-28-2015, 01:42 PM   #86
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Not a forfeiture but was this necessary? All the way up the chain. At least one of the patrol officers seemed to have some common sense. I know old grey headed folks like myself can shoot officers too but I believe this could have been sorted out without all this.
My 59 Chevy truck that I intend to trailer behind my motorhome has the same tag system, found a 1959 SC tag, registered it and its 100% legal. I recently traded my gas MH for a DP for the express reason to tow it to shows. I doubt I'll be taking it to any in Nevada.

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Old 02-28-2015, 01:51 PM   #87
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Not a forfeiture but was this necessary? All the way up the chain. At least one of the patrol officers seemed to have some common sense. My 59 Chevy truck that I intend to trailer behind my motorhome has the same tag system, found a 1959 SC tag and its 100% legal. I recently traded my gas MH for a DP for the express reason to tow it to shows. I doubt I'll be taking it to any in Nevada.

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How absurd, I hope they end up owning half of Nevada!
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Old 02-28-2015, 02:10 PM   #88
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Old 02-28-2015, 02:38 PM   #89
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How absurd, I hope they end up owning half of Nevada!
And on this case I couldn't agree more with you! This should have never gotten to the point it did, based on what was shown in the video and Mhudsons explanation of what took place. But this is not an asset forfeiture case, just a case of poor training and lack of common sense. Everything in our system is not perfect, and occasionally numbers entered by humans get transposed ect. I have had to supervise situations like this and I can tell you, at least where I worked, he wouldn't have been treated this way, nor would he have been arrested. All this would have taken was for the officers to double check their numbers. When things don't make sense it's because something is wrong and commons sense would dictate it needs to be looked into further. And at the very least a supervisor should have responded to the scene.

My guess is they will settle out of court with Mhudson for being arrested, and not figuring this out in the field. Most likely for a large sum as it should be. And the Officers should be dealt with administratively, along with the supervisor who chose not to respond but handle it over the phone. Hopefully this agency will stop this from ever happening again by addressing it thru training and Policy/procedure changes. Again not a perfect world and every type of job/career you can think of has C- employees(ever been to a doctor who shouldn't be one that's a treat), LE tries to weed them out but unfortunately sometimes it takes something like this to find them, acceptable, no, but it happens.
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Old 02-28-2015, 02:45 PM   #90
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Mike, I 100% agree. I am not out to slam officers but bad things can and do happen to law abiding honest citizens. This could have been anywhere. BTW it wasn't me thankfully.
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Old 02-28-2015, 03:04 PM   #91
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Thanks, I guess I'm glad it wasn't you as this wasn't the way it should have went, but whoever it was will most likely get paid well for their experience. As in any organization dealing with issues like this, the biggest mistake you can make as an organization is not correcting the behavior and let it happen again(either thru training, discipline, and procedural changes-most likely all three in this case). So hopefully they have done that.


And here I was thinking you probably are out there in some brand new Prevost RV'ing by now....Take care...Mike
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Old 02-28-2015, 03:46 PM   #92
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Mike,

A lot has changed over the last decade. A different kind of people running things now days, the likes of which I never thought we would see in the USA.

I see a completely different attitude in many of the younger officers than what I grew up with. Maybe something to do with lowering the standards, maybe the training is different, I dunno. I often wonder how they got past the psyche eval.

There have been a lot of police in my family over the last 6 decades. There are none now. Used to have a lot of friends that were cops. All retired. Every one of them still living say things are very different now. Very much an us vs them mentality. Not all of them, but far too many of them and that comes from the top and trickles down to the rank & file.

I wish they were all like the Reagan family on Blue Bloods. They used to be with very rare exception. Not anymore. Those are rare indeed. Damn shame too.

To those that served or still serve with honor, my hats off to you. You have my respect. To the others, be it due to their own attitude or taking orders from the top that infringe on good law abiding folks and treat us all like skells for even a routine traffic stop, not so much.
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Old 02-28-2015, 04:43 PM   #93
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Old Car Nut, thanks for the comments, and I do agree with you things have changed. I've only been retired for 3 years now. As I was leaving I too saw a gradual change in some of the Officers attitudes. I still think that the larger population of Officers out there are doing the right thing and making our profession proud, and are the best you can find. It only takes a few to make all look bad. I ran Internal Affairs for several years, and took care of business when an Officer(s) performance fell below our standards and/or did not comply with policy, so I do understand how some not in the profession come up with their opinions. My only hope is that I did my job well, trained the ones I left behind well, and that they continue to serve our Communities with care and respect.
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Old 03-01-2015, 12:48 AM   #94
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No there is Due Process, you just never see or hear about it as you are not involved in the case and the media has no right to the info, so the outcome is never reported, just the half story. They aren't targeting innocent people, and I still haven't heard from the phantom law abiding citizen who had their MH seized for no reason( because there isn't one).

Having been in LE for over 30 years and retiring at a high level, I do not see LE as the "exception". I have had the OPPORTUNITY to weed out those "bad Cops" you speak of and have received overwhelming support from the good men/women in LE for doing so. Todays LE is very transparent and they protect your rights more than you do(yes that's right). You are not a "bad guy" just misinformed. So with the vast knowledge you have learned on the internet what/how would you investigate and deter the drug dealers and criminals who are deteriorating the safety and moral fabric of our country. I can tell you that myself along with thousands of other professional LE that I have worked with have NEVER arrested an innocent person, or seized property that wasn't involved in a crime or the fruits of criminal enterprise.

But so be it, unless you have the answer and want to put your life on the line to protect those you don't even know, you will never know the real truth, just what you learn from unverified sources. I bet you wouldn't run your own business that way. Good luck to all in your travels, stay safe and enjoy the hobby we all partake in, and most of all don't worry about this as there are too many more likely things that can happen while enjoying the travels of our great Country.
I'm not saying and did not say that LEOs are BAD! I work security and regularly work with LEOs and they are friends of mine. However the Civil Asset Forfeiture LAW is bad law. There is no meaningful due process because in the law the asset itself is the thing being "served". Since things aren't persons the actual person who hasn't even been charged with a crime has to fight to get their asset returned. Often the asset value is much less than the cost to fight to return the asset. The civil asset forfeiture process was rarely used until the equitable sharing process was started. Then it took off and became a major revenue stream for entire departments. Note this is not bad LEOs they are just doing their job collecting revenue and assets for their department. It matters not one whit that it injures innocent people.

Your comment that "...the media has no right to the info, so the outcome is never reported, just the half story." is even more scary. The super secret process that the media and public is not privy to that magically ensures that no abuses of the system ever occur. Sorry but our system of justice is rooted in a very public accounting of government agents activities in dealing with citizens. This includes civil asset forfeiture. The investigative journalists that did the program on Civil Asset Forfeiture I saw gave everyone involved time to have their say including the LEOs and departments involved. These were on the record on camera interviews, depositions of parties involved under oath, and open courtroom testimony. I look at journalists with a skeptical eye and don't believe everything I read or see. That said I have seen and read enough including the DOJ's own material and Congressional testimony that abuses of the Civil Asset Forfeiture do occur and occur way too often. Our system of justice makes it really hard to convict criminals, however it is that way by design. It is better that 10 criminals go free than to punish one innocent person. To reiterate, I'm not saying that LEOs are bad or are abusing their authority! I am saying that cities, counties, states and other enforcement agencies ARE abusing a law intended to defund the drug trade to ensnare innocent people who have done nothing wrong. Keep in mind if a person is not convicted of a crime they are innocent under the law period.

Keep in mind that our entire jurisprudence was based on the premise of "malum en se" which means it is obviously wrong or "wrong in itself". We now have most of our laws that are "Malum prohibitum" which means it is wrong because someone said it is wrong or literally "wrong due to being prohibited".
This leads to the inevitable end in which Lavrentiy Pavlovich Beria said "You bring me the man, I'll find you the crime."

Keep in mind that I have a bit of a unique perspective, my wife comes from a country that the police have nearly unlimited power. They can search anyone anywhere, detain anyone without charge for up to 24 months in an undisclosed location without any representation. So called "official secrets" are never made public. Drug possession is punishable by death! However on my first trip to the country I saw people openly shooting up lying on the street down from a police station! Crime and corruption are rampant. Citizens live in fear of their government and dissent is not tolerated.

The price of liberty is vigilance. I am not na´ve to think we are exempt. People in Nazi Germany willingly gave up their freedoms one at a time, little by little. Even the very people who ended up being murdered by the regime did not realize until it was too late. We need openness and transparency as well as accountability. We certainly do not need a profit motive for any agency in seizing assets. We also need to protect the rights of people who have had their assets seized. This includes free legal representation.

I try to steer clear of trouble myself, this means I don't do things that would invite unwanted attention. I haven't been pulled over for anything in years. However, I will stand with anyone who has had their rights trampled on!
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Old 03-01-2015, 09:32 AM   #95
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Wow, some of you talk like you are living in some third world country where you never know what the Police or Military is going to do. I guess if you know of a safer country to live in with the quality of life we have here in the USA, and the rights afforded to us, maybe you should move there. There has been a lot of hyped up comments against Police on this thread which is unfortunate, because without them we would only have the crooks to protect us. Is that what you really want, the great majority of the Cops I know are working their tails off just to provide us with a safe community/country to live in. Have all of you worked in a career where you didn't occasionally get a bad employee that didn't represent your career in the best way, and then they got weeded out. If not you have blinders on. People are human, not computers or perfect.
Not really but unfortunately there has been way too many verified accounts of LEOs overstepping what's legal. I'm very pro police and my son in law was an officer till he suffered a serious on the job injury. They have a thankless job but there are bad apples that are giving all police a bad name.

Quote:
Most of what has been said has been blown out of proportion, third hand info, and most likely not the whole story. It must be nice to tell only one side and get people worried that their rights are being violated on a daily basis, and they should live in fear. How on earth are they going to smell marijuana coming from your MH if you are not smoking it. This is 2015, the police have neither the time or desire to mess with good law abiding citizens. Like said before most of us are just older retired couples, out enjoying our MH's traveling the USA, and have absolutely nothing to worry about when dealing with the Police, most likely if you do have an encounter it will be because you really need their help.
There have been documented videos that prove too many bad LEO do overstep and even harass. Any LEO that complains about being video and audio IMHO has something to hide. A good LEO should welcome being recorded.

It's also well documented that some LEOs lie about smelling something in order to have probable cause to detain someone. Sure maybe they have a gut feeling but gut feelings are not probable cause.

Take the poor sr. citizen that was gong home and got pulled over and accused of transporting marijuana. Accused of not signaling, slipping a little on some ice (so did the LEO), and tapping the curb a little which is not illegal. The real reason was his Colorado plate. They wouldn't let him go until they pressured him to finally consent to a search. They then ripped his car apart and of course found nothing and he's now taking legal action. This is the kind of stuff that HAS to be stopped. Video here.
So as I said I do totally support the police but not when they start crossing the line. So the reality is that you need to be careful when dealing with LEOs especially outside of the state you're registered in.
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Old 03-01-2015, 11:06 AM   #96
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Old Car Nut, thanks for the comments, and I do agree with you things have changed. I've only been retired for 3 years now. As I was leaving I too saw a gradual change in some of the Officers attitudes. I still think that the larger population of Officers out there are doing the right thing and making our profession proud, and are the best you can find. It only takes a few to make all look bad. I ran Internal Affairs for several years, and took care of business when an Officer(s) performance fell below our standards and/or did not comply with policy, so I do understand how some not in the profession come up with their opinions. My only hope is that I did my job well, trained the ones I left behind well, and that they continue to serve our Communities with care and respect.
Thanks for your service Mike.
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Old 03-01-2015, 12:23 PM   #97
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msturtz, your response is what it is because you(like many of the other "experts" who have replied to this thread) most likely don't have training in the application of Civil Asset Forfeiture Laws, and have never read the law or applied it so I take your response as well as others as well intended but grossly misstated. I wouldn't have ever been a Cop if I didn't respect our rights. Criminals are the ones who take away your rights on a daily basis you just don't see it. Most people would love to live without fear of being victimized, your kids getting addicted to drugs, robbed, killed ect. But it happens everyday in the US and it's criminals who are doing it. They have taken away peoples feeling of security, not LE.

So with that two questions and these are not hypothetical. Consider you are conducting an investigation on a criminal enterprise who is importing thousands of kilos of cocaine into the US on a daily basis. You have months involved in the investigation. They get about 10% thru without being stolen by other criminals or seized by LE. Even with that they still make more money than GM/Ford together.
While doing your investigation which has several targets you come across a "Mope" carrying $4 million in black plastic trash bags. You have probable cause not only to stop him, but PC to arrest him too and if charged he would be convicted( don't start the BS of how do you know, just take it for what it's stated). So anyway you seize the money( he says he didn't even know it was in his vehicle) and book this "Mope" and release him with no charges for the moment. The reason is NOT because there are never going to be charges ever filed against this "Mope", it's because once you charge them with a crime, the discovery phase starts and you have to disclose your PC and other information that would jeopardize the bigger case.

"Mopes" are a dime a dozen, they pay these guys good to move drugs or money(rarely ever together) across our country. We don't want the "Mopes", we want the kingpin, the shot caller, the man behind the organization. They will purposely send these guys out to get arrested so the discovery starts and they can see what info LE has, where their warehouses are, who and what locations they have identified ect. It is truly a game to them.

So, first what are you going to do with the money. The law says it can be funneled back into the seizing organization(s), (after a due process hearing which the "Mope" or Organization leader in never going to come to), ONLY to be used to FUND the agencies investigations and equipment needed for Drug Interdiction/Investigations and the Education of Kids to stay away from drugs and other criminal potentials. Guess what for all you people who think the Government is out to get you and you are being taxed to death, this is one area where Civil Asset Forfeiture is paying for these investigations and not the USA Taxpayers. That's right the Crooks are paying the bill and it's expensive for the manpower, equipment, and time to take drugs off the street and out of our Kids/Grandkids hands. And the Due Process hearings are held even if nobody shows up, but are sealed by the judge to protect the investigation.

Second question if you put all this time and effort into this investigation, do you really want the "Mope" who really knows nothing about the organization, is not a shot caller, and really can't help you. You will go back and arrest him later(once you wrap up the investigation) via warrant and charge him with the same conspiracy. Would you let what others, the media ect, who don't know the bigger case ruin your investigation just because a FEW, think you are violating someone's rights when in fact you are not, it's all documented but just not released to the media or the crook(who never showed up for his due process hearing). And if you don't think the Drug dealing organizations and their attorney's know this then you are being na´ve.


Comparing us to Germany is a bit out there and I would never want my kids/grandkids growing up in the environment you described. You said you work in Security which is great but I would think you would have a better understanding when it comes to how laws work. With that said as mentioned before to me I will never make some of you understand what is really happening and that LE is not out to seize your MH, so I will not be responding anymore and you and others believe what you believe, I have done more than my share of trying to educate re this topic. And the topic wasn't bad LE Officers to start with, it was Civil Asset Forfeiture, but some have changed it to that. If any of you have read my posts, I think you will see that I do agree there is no room in LE for the "bad Apples" and have done my share of weeding them out/retraining them ect. when I was still working.

So to those of you who have sent me private emails/messages don't be afraid to use your MH's and travel, and treat LE as they treat you. More times than not they are the ones who will be saving your bacon when problems arise on the road, as there are 99% Good Cops out there, and yes I believe even 1% "bad apples" is too many and unacceptable. Good Luck and have many safe travels.
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Old 03-01-2015, 12:34 PM   #98
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Old Car Nut, thanks for your comment, I've tried my best to educate people so they do not fear traveling and enjoying our hobby. I probably wouldn't have responded so much except that I am recovering from a major shoulder surgery and can't do much else. I look at my MH sitting outside and try to "travel" while recovering by reading IRV2, probably a little too much..haha....Thanks Mike
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