Federal Gas Tax

[blackf3504dr]

Originally Posted by Lindsay Richards

Now that was funny.

So funny it'll make you cry.....

[elkhornsun]

We are really subsidizing the trucking industry and the real estate developers. Trucks destroy sections of roads in a single season with their loads and the often 12-14 foot deep roadbed which is very expensive to build and maintain is only needed by trucks with their 20K lb. per axle loads.

I worked for the Division of Highways in California in the 1970's and all the construction of freeways and straightening of highways was done to benefit the truckers and enrich real estate developers. Every time a freeway was built in Southern California the desert scrub land that had sold for less than $1000 an acre became starter home building sites worth $150,000 an acre and the developers did not pay one cent of the cost of the freeway.

Look at West Virginia which is the poorest state in the nation in terms of the income of its workers and spends the least on education and other public services but spends by far the most to maintain its roads which have triple the normal thickness of asphalt which is maintained year after year to support the weight of the coal trucks.

As always you need to follow the money.

[TLGPE]

Sorry, but that rant seems entirely too one-sided. Yes, we pay for roads to benefit truckers. We also complain about high gas prices. Take a guess at how high those prices would be if the roads were less improved. Nearly everything we buy at any strore (even on-line) gets to us by truck. No, I'm not a trucker, and have not ever been one, but I can see cause and effect at work.

Maybe somebody benefits from our tax money at work, but we also benefit, so we want it done. Eisenhower put the interstate highway system in place to benefit the military, but the effect has been the enormous industrial and economic expansion that benefited all of us, including the RV world.

Look around you and see the roadways that referred to as "arteries". Yes, those arteries really do service the "heartbeat of America".

OK, that's my rant for today.
Tom

[wa8yxm]

Thank you Arch for pointing out that it was Ike, not FDR who started the interstates, And I might Henry Ford who started the Freeway (The first freeway in the US was (And still is) the Davison, which runs from Detroit, to Detroit, through Highland Park, MI.. I used to dispatch police on it and have a funny story from that time.. but not today).


There is a considerable greater amount of income than just the gas tax from the Freeways, I won't list all the other ways they generate income for the government, but suffice to say looking at the issue with blinders on leads to invalid conclusions. I think, based on the info in the OPs post they are indeed showing a profit.

But it could be better.

US freeways are not all tha twell built, if the Government would switch to the Autobon standard (Thicker, and stronger concrete) and do quality control testing, I suspect we could cut the cost of maintenance by 25 percent or more.

I might add, I'm not alone in thinking this way.. I used to enjoy coffee breaks in the same break room used by Highway engineers, the folks who design them, and it is from THEM that I got this information. Michigan did a test stretch (A few miles of I-75 to a Modified Autoban standard, not quite as thick) I do not know how it turned out as it was still in good condition when I retired. Got to look up Tom one of these days, He is now retired as well. ({Professor Tom Mullins, Michigan MDOT, Lawrence Institute of Technology, I once got in a discussion with him over a problem at the office, We grabbed paper towels (No napkins) and started sketching solutions,, My poor boss was lost within 30 seconds)

[Midniteoyl]

Originally Posted by elkhornsun

We are really subsidizing the trucking industry and the real estate developers. Trucks destroy sections of roads in a single season with their loads and the often 12-14 foot deep roadbed which is very expensive to build and maintain is only needed by trucks with their 20K lb. per axle loads.

I worked for the Division of Highways in California in the 1970's and all the construction of freeways and straightening of highways was done to benefit the truckers and enrich real estate developers. Every time a freeway was built in Southern California the desert scrub land that had sold for less than $1000 an acre became starter home building sites worth $150,000 an acre and the developers did not pay one cent of the cost of the freeway.

Look at West Virginia which is the poorest state in the nation in terms of the income of its workers and spends the least on education and other public services but spends by far the most to maintain its roads which have triple the normal thickness of asphalt which is maintained year after year to support the weight of the coal trucks.

As always you need to follow the money.

So only trucks have 20k lb axles?

[blackf3504dr]

The way highway projects are funded here in the U.S and in Europe is quite different.
Here they go for the lowest bid and hope for the best, in Europe they bid for the contractor that will deliver the end results they want then require a warranty for a set time period.
It's sad that our infrastructure is so low in importance when it comes to spending our tax monies . If we (you and I) handled our own affairs in the same manner, we wouldn't replace a bad roof until half of it was gone.....

[speed racer]

The first interstate highway under the Ike plan was started here in St.Charles Mo. in 1956 (I70). Last year they built a museum for local transpotation using highway funds just south of that location on highway 94. There was a lot of discusion about that being the proper way to spend highway funds but they said that a pecentage of the federal highway funds were set aside for those type of projects. They also built a bike trail from the Katy bike trail to the museum.

[stuhly]

If there is any money available you can bet some slimeball politician will figure out a way to get their grubby fingers on it.

[JimM68]

Originally Posted by stuhly

If there is any money available you can bet some slimeball politician will figure out a way to get their grubby fingers on it.

Not to get too political, or too far off the subject, but as long as our political system remains self-perpetual, nothing will change. Since "they" can go to washington for life (as long as they can buy the votes) there is no incentive for anything other than self serving corruption...

Here in illinois, our constitution demands a balanced budget.

Guess what these yahoos did?
They stopped funding pensions, for state employees, firemen, cops, and teachers!
They did this in the 70's. The unfunded pension obligation is now over 20 years of total state revenue!

But it's not as bad as it looks...
The politicians did fund their own pensions....

Term limits, along with no pensions for politicians, are the only answer....

[Ramblin]

Originally Posted by Midniteoyl

So only trucks have 20k lb axles?

I took it to mean 20K per axle. Most trucks have 5 axels, 100Klb total.

[Midniteoyl]

Originally Posted by Ramblin

I took it to mean 20K per axle. Most trucks have 5 axels, 100Klb total.

So did I.. and its the weight per axle that tears up the road..

[Craig_R]

Originally Posted by Midniteoyl

So did I.. and its the weight per axle that tears up the road..

And here I thought you were being introspective. I thought maybe you were driving at the fact that most of us who are operating large DPs also have a 20K drive axle and, in my own case, a 13K steeing axle. Whether or not my DP is tearing up the highway is moot. The way I see it bad roads tear up my coach. If there was a way to measure in dollars how much my coach tore up the highways over the course of 1 year versus how much damage the highways did to my coach, it would probably be a wash.

Originally Posted by elkhornsun

We are really subsidizing the trucking industry and the real estate developers. Trucks destroy sections of roads in a single season with their loads and the often 12-14 foot deep roadbed which is very expensive to build and maintain is only needed by trucks with their 20K lb. per axle loads.

I worked for the Division of Highways in California in the 1970's and all the construction of freeways and straightening of highways was done to benefit the truckers and enrich real estate developers. Every time a freeway was built in Southern California the desert scrub land that had sold for less than $1000 an acre became starter home building sites worth $150,000 an acre and the developers did not pay one cent of the cost of the freeway.

Look at West Virginia which is the poorest state in the nation in terms of the income of its workers and spends the least on education and other public services but spends by far the most to maintain its roads which have triple the normal thickness of asphalt which is maintained year after year to support the weight of the coal trucks.

As always you need to follow the money.

If there is anyone who is paying his/her fair share in the cost of upkeep of the highways in this country, it's the American trucker and American trucking companies. Yes they do pay fuel tax at the pump. But they also pay fuel tax to each individual state based on the number of miles traveled in that state each quarter. Trucks also pay something called Federal Highway Use Tax also known as Heavy Highway Vehicle Use Tax. I'm not sure how that one is calculated but I do know that if you don't pay it the IRS will come looking for you. The other interesting tax is the Federal Excise Tax on tires. Yes I know, we all pay that when we buy tires. The rub is that the tax is calculated on the carrying capacity of the tire. The more weight the tire can carry, the more Federal Excise Tax you get to pay. So when you make a statement that "we the people" are susidizing trucks, nothing could be farther from the truth. In fact, there are even other fees and taxes that trucks pay to government but those are the big three.

To address your point about how well America's highways are built. Go to Germany observe how the Autobahn is built and maintained and then come back try to tell me how good America's highways are built.

Someone already pointed out that we need to get congress to take the money that is collected from all of the above taxes and make sure it all goes back into the nations transportation infrastructure. The orginal draft of the Intermodal Surface Transportation Act (ISTEA) of 1991 was supposed to do that. Unfortunately it didn't make the final cut and the politicians have been mis-directing those funds ever since.

[blackf3504dr]

Originally Posted by Midniteoyl

So did I.. and its the weight per axle that tears up the road..

To set the record straight.... Trucks are allowed 80,000 lbs. on five axles, which works out like this. 12,000 on the steer axle, 34,000 on tandem drive axles (20,000 on a single drive axle) and 34,000 on tandem trailer axles.
There are exceptions such as trailer axles separated by 9' may carry 18,000 known as a 9' spread. Michigan does allow 161,000 on eleven axles which is still far below the 20,000 per axle mentioned......
Do trucks cause damage to the roads ? You can bet your bippy they do, but they also pay a heck of a lot more in taxes per mile then automobiles do. Can roads be built better to handle the truck traffic ? Yep, but for some reason the powers that be would rather cheap out on road construction, then continue to spend money repairing those roads... Go figure.

[Midniteoyl]

Originally Posted by Craig_R

And here I thought you were being introspective. I thought maybe you were driving at the fact that most of us who are operating large DPs also have a 20K drive axle and, in my own case, a 13K steeing axle. Whether or not my DP is tearing up the highway is moot. The way I see it bad roads tear up my coach. If there was a way to measure in dollars how much my coach tore up the highways over the course of 1 year versus how much damage the highways did to my coach, it would probably be a wash.



If there is anyone who is paying his/her fair share in the cost of upkeep of the highways in this country, it's the American trucker and American trucking companies. Yes they do pay fuel tax at the pump. But they also pay fuel tax to each individual state based on the number of miles traveled in that state each quarter. Trucks also pay something called Federal Highway Use Tax also known as Heavy Highway Vehicle Use Tax. I'm not sure how that one is calculated but I do know that if you don't pay it the IRS will come looking for you. The other interesting tax is the Federal Excise Tax on tires. Yes I know, we all pay that when we buy tires. The rub is that the tax is calculated on the carrying capacity of the tire. The more weight the tire can carry, the more Federal Excise Tax you get to pay. So when you make a statement that "we the people" are susidizing trucks, nothing could be farther from the truth. In fact, there are even other fees and taxes that trucks pay to government but those are the big three.

To address your point about how well America's highways are built. Go to Germany observe how the Autobahn is built and maintained and then come back try to tell me how good America's highways are built.

Someone already pointed out that we need to get congress to take the money that is collected from all of the above taxes and make sure it all goes back into the nations transportation infrastructure. The orginal draft of the Intermodal Surface Transportation Act (ISTEA) of 1991 was supposed to do that. Unfortunately it didn't make the final cut and the politicians have been mis-directing those funds ever since.

The whole point f my post WAS because DP's have 20k axles too...