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Old 02-22-2007, 05:10 PM   #15
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I will reply to some points you make

1. "What some of us Christians object to is the pushing of Christianity on non-Christians."

First of all at the time of writing of the Constitution, as now, the predominate religion was Christianity. Historical Christianity and expressions of have been a part of American life. . The United States Capitol regularly served as a church building; a practice that began even before Congress officially moved into the building and lasted until well after the Civil War. All colleges in America were Christian, including Harvard
US Presidents regularly issued days of fasting and prayer.
The Liberty Bell inscription is Scripture, "Proclaim liberty throughout the land, and to all the inhabitants thereof" Leviticus 25:10
The lyrics of the Star Spangled Banner, our national anthem include a reference to God And this be our motto, "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Generations of Americans grew up praying in school and reciting the pledge of allegiance without any adverse influence on America. Quite the opposite, these Americans built this country into the greatest, freest, and more prosperous nation in the world.

So it seems that contrary to your opinion, Christianity and the free exercise of has been a historical fact of American life and non-Christians have pushed their agenda
of removing historical Christianity from every visage of American life, stepping on the rights of American Christians

However I will say this again,no one, including the government has made a law making Christianity the "state religion" or has forced any American to be a Christian or pray, which is what the 1st amendmnet is about, that he governemnt not cannot establish a "state religion"

. "This can't be done, unless you allow all religions to offer up prayers."

A moment of silence in a classroom for prayer does not mean that children are being forced to pray for Jesus.

BTW, "Students may also speak to, and attempt to persuade, their peers about religious topics just as they do with regard to political topics." As a Christian, the
Bible does command us to share the good news with others. Mark 15:16

However to bring you up to speed:
U.S. Dept. of Educ. Guidelines, Richard W. Riley, at 4. Thus, public school teachers, when in communication with their students in their official capacity, should take care in avoiding religiously coercive situations.
Having said that, however, the Establishment Clause does not prohibit all religious instruction in public schools. "[T]he Bible may constitutionally be used in an appropriate study of history, civilization, ethics, comparative religion, or the like." Stone v. Graham, 449 U.S. 39, 42 (1980) (citing Abington School District v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203, 225 (1963)). In fact, the Supreme Court has recognized that it might well be said that one's education is not complete without a study of comparative religion or the history of religion and its relationship to the advancement of civilization." Abington, 374 U.S. at 225 (1963). Please note, however, that school boards or other officials may not be compelled to utilize such curricula. Rather, school officials are given substantial discretion in choosing their own curricula.
Thus, teachers can teach about and/or distribute material with religious content for educational purposes. In addition, teachers may discuss religious matters with their students on an individual basis if the student initiates the topic, the student is not compelled or forced to discuss the topic, and the student is not compelled to accept the teacher's views. Roman v. Appleby, 558 F. Supp. 449 (E.D. Penn. 1983).
The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment does not prohibit purely private religious speech by students.

Students therefore have the same right to engage in individual or group prayer and religious discussion during the school day as they do to engage in other comparable activity. For example, students may read their Bibles or other scriptures, say grace before meals, and pray before tests to the same extent they may engage in comparable nondisruptive activities. Local school authorities possess substantial discretion to impose rules of order and other pedagogical restrictions on student activities, but they may not structure or administer such rules to discriminate against religious activity or speech.

Generally, students may pray in a nondisruptive manner when not engaged in school activities or instruction, and subject to the rules that normally pertain in the applicable setting. Specifically, students in informal settings, such as cafeterias and hallways, may pray and discuss their religious views with each other, subject to the same rules of order as apply to other student activities and speech. Students may also speak to, and attempt to persuade, their peers about religious topics just as they do with regard to political topics. School officials, however, should intercede to stop student speech that constitutes harassment aimed at a student or a group of students.

Students may also participate in before or after school events with religious content, such as "see you at the flag pole" gatherings, on the same terms as they may participate in other noncurriculum activities on school premises. School officials may neither discourage nor encourage participation in such an event.

The right to engage in voluntary prayer or religious discussion free from discrimination does not include the right to have a captive audience listen, or to compel other students to participate. Teachers and school administrators should ensure that no student is in any way coerced to participate in religious activity.

2. "The Supreme Court, until finally, an enlightened group of people on the bench came to their senses and said, "Hey, this is wrong. This is against the Constitution."

First, all the social wrongs you quote did not continue with, without the blessings of the Supreme Court no matter how "enlightened" you think certain judges may, or may not be. The Supreme Court is the judicial branch of our government with NO power to make law. This in the Consittuional scope of the national and states legislature.

Whenever the Supreme Court makes law by their rulings, it IS unconstitutional. This is what "is against the Constitution." The constitutional role of the Supreme Court is to uphold the law that the legislature has passed. We have a system of checks and balances, which unfortunately seems to have failed us in contemporary times with "activists" judging making law from the bench. Nevertheless, the judiciary making law, IS unconstitutional, period.

BTW it was a Supreme Court ruling, in contemporary America, 1947, in the case Everson v. Board of Education, the Supreme Court declared, "The First Amendment has erected a wall between church and state. That wall must be kept high and impregnable. We could not approve the slightest breach."
The "separation of church and state" phrase which they invoked, and which has today become so familiar, was taken from an exchange of letters between President Thomas Jefferson and the Baptist Association of Danbury, Connecticut, shortly after Jefferson became President.
One further note should be made about the now infamous "separation" dogma. The Congressional Records from June 7 to September 25, 1789, record the months of discussions and debates of the ninety Founding Fathers who framed the First Amendment. Significantly, not only was Thomas Jefferson not one of those ninety who framed the First Amendment, but also, during those debates not one of those ninety Framers ever mentioned the phrase "separation of church and state." It seems logical that if this had been the intent for the First Amendment-as is so frequently asserted-then at least one of those ninety who framed the Amendment would have mentioned that phrase; none did.

However do not take my word for it, I encourage you to read or re-read Article III [The Judiciary] Article I [The Legislative Branch] of The Constitution of the United States of America,in addtion to congressional records

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Colesmeister:
There is no questioning that Christian principles led the founders of the country. Thank God for that. What some of us Christians object to is the pushing of Christianity on non-Christians. That is what is happening when there are teacher-led Christian prayers in public schools and Christian-like prayers at the start of public meetings. This can't be done, unless you allow all religions to offer up prayers.

Unconstitutional actions have been sanctioned by the Supreme Court down through the ages. In times past, racism and suppression of women's rights were allowed to continue with the blessings of the Supreme Court, until finally, an enlightened group of people on the bench came to their senses and said, "Hey, this is wrong. This is against the Constitution." So, even though our money says, "In God we Trust" and public meetings very often begin with a prayer, it doesn't mean it's constitutional. When the Court ruled that segregation was unconstitutional, there was moaning and gnashing of teeth, just as there is now with the prayer in school issue. It will all pass and we'll all calm down and come to our senses and realize that religion in government is not a good thing. An elected body that follows the good in their religion in their own life, whether it be Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc., that's what we need. A person so imbued will carried that good over into their decisions that affect us all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

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Old 02-22-2007, 05:11 PM   #16
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Thank you for your service to our country

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stanbnv:
I am quite familiar with the Constitution of the United States, as I was sworn to "Protect and defend the Constitution of the United States from all enemys, foreign and domestic" for over 30 years of my life, and from my American Constitutional History classes in college. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

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Old 02-23-2007, 06:40 AM   #17
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Well said Colesmeister!

The image of Christians these days is horrible, driven by uquestioning blind faith demanded by TV pastors. Sadly that image is affecting well meaning Christians who are full of love for their fellow man.

I think the Amish community showed us what being Christian should be all about last year after that horrible school shooting. During an interview an Amish woman said they were Christain and would forgive! I was shocked by that statement. These days it's hard to associate the words like love and forgivness with Christians. That image is brought on by religious extremeists.

I'm all for religious freedom to worship as you choose. However, that does not mean I have to accept your beliefs that make no logical sense to me. Our country was founded on Freedom from Religion which should be the same as Freedom of Religion.

We had 6 years of complete conservative christian control over our country. Our country is in trouble and going down fast. If you read the polls most Americans realize that and want change before it's too late. Can anyone come up with anything good that has happend the last 6 years?


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Old 02-23-2007, 07:01 AM   #18
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