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Old 11-23-2011, 07:16 AM   #43
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I do not want poor workers, dirty rivers, and work practices that injure workers.
I agree, there is some value to these programs that should remain.

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trade is a synonym for a tariff or other restriction on trade. Trade wars were a major contributor to the great depression.
No doubt there are some risks. However, there already is a trade war and we are getting whipped. China is organized and maliciously predatory, they manipulate currency values to favor them over us. Korea, for example, requires that they be allowed to export 50 cars for every one Ford sends there.

Pensions may have to be realigned, but companies can't simply dump them, although they seem to be able to. This just puts the burden on welfare systems. Our leadership, both public and private, enriches themselves at others expense. Alas, a society without ethics and morality beyond self can not hope to win.
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Old 11-23-2011, 09:17 AM   #44
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Don't you think that so much of the fix we are in is a result of the development of the "me first and me only" attitude in this country. We talk about the greed of unions and corporations but ignore the fact that both entities are made up of us, the proverbial 'We the People' rather than just some nameless faceless being. When we look at Washington we see the massive differences in both sides and both sides are just being self serving.

Guess what? We have to raise taxes AND cut entitlements. That means pain for all of us, but the alternative of watching the whole system crash and burn is not acceptable. I see empty factories with unemployed union members who wanted more than was there to give. I see empty factories sacrificed in the name of an extra $.02 a share in dividends. Both scenarios should be unacceptable to all of us. I think most of us on this Board are getting too old to learn Chinese.
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Old 11-23-2011, 09:47 AM   #45
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I think most of us on this Board are getting too old to learn Chinese.

"EdZacary"

This forum has been a great read this morning. Thank you all for your thoughts.
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Old 11-23-2011, 12:09 PM   #46
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Don't you think that so much of the fix we are in is a result of the development of the "me first and me only" attitude in this country. We talk about the greed of unions and corporations but ignore the fact that both entities are made up of us, the proverbial 'We the People' rather than just some nameless faceless being. When we look at Washington we see the massive differences in both sides and both sides are just being self serving.

Guess what? We have to raise taxes AND cut entitlements. That means pain for all of us, but the alternative of watching the whole system crash and burn is not acceptable. I see empty factories with unemployed union members who wanted more than was there to give. I see empty factories sacrificed in the name of an extra $.02 a share in dividends. Both scenarios should be unacceptable to all of us. I think most of us on this Board are getting too old to learn Chinese.
As long as the pain is shared, who could argue? But we are at war for the first time in our history without raising taxes, there is no shared pain there, only the military and their families are suffering. None of this rich and poor cra? everyone shares the load! Let's see who has the gonads to do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 11-23-2011, 01:44 PM   #47
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whatever

I've never been in a Union in my life, but I do support them. I've studied history and seen what good they have done and continue to do. Biggest fact is - wages have been flat or declining since the 70's for everyone except the wealthy. In the 40's the CEO's "wage" was 40 times that of the labor force, now it is 400 times higher. Management does not and cannot produce without labor. Study history and you will find that it was not labor that forced any business to close - it was poor management.

Here is another fact - CEO's and small business owners do not create jobs. Demand for products and services place pressure on business' to hire. No demand, no jobs. It really is that simple. Cutting taxes on the wealthy or business does not creat jobs. Reducing costs adds to profit - not jobs. Trickle down will not work to increase jobs; if it would, we would have full employment now.

I'm part of the "99%".
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Old 11-23-2011, 09:48 PM   #48
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As long as the pain is shared, who could argue? But we are at war for the first time in our history without raising taxes, there is no shared pain there, only the military and their families are suffering. None of this rich and poor cra? everyone shares the load! Let's see who has the gonads to do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hondo, I agree with what you are saying. The pain has to be shared. That means tax increases and benefit cuts. It has to be. The fact that military families have to go on food stamps is an obscenity that should be corrected. Nothing will change in this country until we all are willing to sacrifice.

As far as unions never causing a plant to close....Wow, I guess that all the closed steel plants and auto plants in our area are just caused by poor management and the unions had nothing to do with it. Sorry, but when blue collar labor makes six figure salaries by puffing up overtime, the business will not survive. I think when someone wants to look at history, they should also check out the end of many newspapers in the US. Also take a look at the problems that almost all 50 States are having because of bloated pensions that were jammed down the taxpayers' throats by unions that also made massive political donations to the very people who they were negotiating with.

As far as no small business person creating jobs....I wonder if my five employees know that they really don't have a job. Or maybe the 35 people who work for my brother's lumber yards really don't have jobs. Any of us who have our own business had the guts to lay our whole lives on the line to start a business and to employ others. In the case of my brother's business, his grandson is the fifth generation in a business that has been around for 100 years next year. To say that we who bust our butts and worry about not only ourselves but our employees don't really create jobs is an incredibly short sighted and bogus observation.

I have a saying that seems to fit all small businesses: It takes more guts than genius. You have to think you are better at something than someone else, but you can't be smart enough to know you are not!
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Old 11-24-2011, 10:00 AM   #49
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Hondo, I agree with what you are saying. The pain has to be shared. That means tax increases and benefit cuts. It has to be. The fact that military families have to go on food stamps is an obscenity that should be corrected. Nothing will change in this country until we all are willing to sacrifice.

As far as unions never causing a plant to close....Wow, I guess that all the closed steel plants and auto plants in our area are just caused by poor management and the unions had nothing to do with it. Sorry, but when blue collar labor makes six figure salaries by puffing up overtime, the business will not survive. I think when someone wants to look at history, they should also check out the end of many newspapers in the US. Also take a look at the problems that almost all 50 States are having because of bloated pensions that were jammed down the taxpayers' throats by unions that also made massive political donations to the very people who they were negotiating with.

As far as no small business person creating jobs....I wonder if my five employees know that they really don't have a job. Or maybe the 35 people who work for my brother's lumber yards really don't have jobs. Any of us who have our own business had the guts to lay our whole lives on the line to start a business and to employ others. In the case of my brother's business, his grandson is the fifth generation in a business that has been around for 100 years next year. To say that we who bust our butts and worry about not only ourselves but our employees don't really create jobs is an incredibly short sighted and bogus observation.

I have a saying that seems to fit all small businesses: It takes more guts than genius. You have to think you are better at something ants things to support their beliefsthan someone else, but you can't be smart enough to know you are not!
The only thing I would argue in your statement is the Newspapers are dieing because society is too lazy to read, they want their news spoon fed to them one sound bite at a time, from a station that supports their beliefs, right or left. No one wants to take the time and energy to really find out what is going on. By the way that's whats great about threads like this people are subjected to others veiws and maybe take something of value away. Happy Thanksgiving to all, this is still the best place and the best time in history to live, God Bless those that protect us.
PS I've made 6 figures as a union man, not because I wanted to work 70 hours a week, rather that was what was required to meet the schedule handed down by management. ( at the time I was saleried supervision so no overtime pay)
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Old 11-25-2011, 08:09 AM   #50
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Mike, I think the death of newspapers is laid at the feet of both of the issues we both stated. I would have to agree that your reason is more of the blame than mine.

At one time unions were almost a necessity in the US. When the balance of power was strictly in the hands of management then unions had their place. Now the balance of power has swung so far in the other direction that unions are out of control. The Supreme Court is supposed to hear a case this session as to whether or not unions have the right to use violence to serve their needs. Now that is just plain dumb.

One of the biggest problems I have with a union is their desire to eliminate accountability. Of all the issues I see in the US the lack of accountability has to rank close to the top. It's never my fault and always someone else's. Look at the huge business of litigation. Every single one of those lawsuits seems to be based on someone else's fault. That has to change.

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Old 11-25-2011, 08:34 AM   #51
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Yes... most people either loved or hated Steve Jobs, but seriously... do you really think he had any other choice then to compete with manufactures which had already gone to China?

The article states Apple changed the rules, but actually corporate America changed the rules.

Obviously a biased news article by yet another Steve Jobs hater.

I'm not saying he was the greatest guy to come along since Henry Ford, I'm just saying he followed suite with all the other manufactures in order to compete in a world market.

I wish it was as simple as pointing a finger to one person for all this great nations woes.
Agreed. People tend to forget that Foxconn manufactures electronics for companies other than just Apple but journalists know that any article with "Apple" in it gets lots of media attention and hits.
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Old 11-25-2011, 09:11 AM   #52
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According to this article Steve Jobs Biography: 11 Most Startling Revelations About the Apple CEO - ABC News (a summary of stuff in the Jobs biography) Jobs told the President that he was forced to move manufacturing to China because of failures in the US education system. Speaking of Job's conversation
"Isaacson writes that he also lectured the president on America's broken education system, insisting that until teachers' unions are broken -- and they are paid for performance -- there is no hope for reform.
The topic came up a few months later at a dinner for the president thrown by a small group of Silicon Valley executives. Jobs explained how he had 700,000 factory workers building his products in China mainly because he needed 30,000 engineers to support them and "you can't find that many in America to hire.""

I am probably too old to be much affected, but I worry about our grandchildren's future.
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Old 11-25-2011, 03:59 PM   #53
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Oh jz I am with you on that one. My oldest daughter got her PhD in bio-chemistry from Johns Hopkins and she is concerned about getting a job because the drug companies are doing all their research in China. Even a phenomenal education won't guarantee a job.
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Old 11-25-2011, 05:12 PM   #54
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Oh jz I am with you on that one. My oldest daughter got her PhD in bio-chemistry from Johns Hopkins and she is concerned about getting a job because the drug companies are doing all their research in China. Even a phenomenal education won't guarantee a job.
The Philly area has become a mecca for Big Pharma, I've put up quite a few buildings for Merck over the years, they still do a lot of research in the area. The big universities such as Penn do a lot of research also, hope she finds something without learning to speak Chinese
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Old 11-25-2011, 05:23 PM   #55
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According to this article Steve Jobs Biography: 11 Most Startling Revelations About the Apple CEO - ABC News (a summary of stuff in the Jobs biography) Jobs told the President that he was forced to move manufacturing to China because of failures in the US education system. Speaking of Job's conversation
"Isaacson writes that he also lectured the president on America's broken education system, insisting that until teachers' unions are broken -- and they are paid for performance -- there is no hope for reform.
The topic came up a few months later at a dinner for the president thrown by a small group of Silicon Valley executives. Jobs explained how he had 700,000 factory workers building his products in China mainly because he needed 30,000 engineers to support them and "you can't find that many in America to hire.""

I am probably too old to be much affected, but I worry about our grandchildren's future.
As long as we pay people more to work on Wall street than engineering this will continue. I'm not saying engineers should be making 7 figure incomes, just that the Wall street folks that "PRODUCE NOTHING" are way over compensated.
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Old 11-25-2011, 05:56 PM   #56
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wyntaxman - the people you employ would not be employed if there was no demand for the products they produce. No demand and you would not be in business. There must be a demand for whatever you produce or you would be laying them off. I can't believe that you would hire just because you might be lonely.
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