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Old 11-30-2011, 06:29 PM   #99
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I can't think of the words to describe how wrong I think you are about CEO compensation, they succeed by the cut and burn ideology that if it's not profitable right now cut it lose and fire everyone and sell the assets, the bottom line looks better RIGHT NOW, the hell with the workers,we want profits now. JMHO
I think you misread my post. When I talked about CEO compensation I specifically mentioned successful CEO's. These are leaders of companies like Exxon, Microsoft, Apple, McDonald's, Ebay, Facebook and yes, Walmart. These CEO's grew the company providing a reasonable rate of return for its bond holders and shareholders. You will say what about the employees! The more successful the company the better the wages that can be paid. A companies incentive to pay good wages is to attract more qualified workers, which help to make the company more successful.

There are CEO's who are hired for the sole purpose of dismantling companies. These CEO's still have a responsibility to the bond and shareholders and yes to let go employees. So if these CEO's successfully do what they were hired to do why shouldn't they be paid accordingly.

What bothers me are the CEO's who are incompetent, inept and beyond their capability, who ruin a good company causing good hardworking people to loose their jobs. Who ultimately leave the company in shambles while they collect a king's ransom in compensation. These CEO's need to be jailed!
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Old 11-30-2011, 07:39 PM   #100
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The Constitution, bill of rights, et al refer SOLEY to the interaction between "We the people" and the various levels of governement. The primary intent is that government is limited to the powers that "We the People" grant them and essentially our elected officials work for US and we can fire them at the next election. It has very little to do with business. That is why as an example, freedom of speech does not protect you from being fired if you call your boss an ass.

Some people seem to feel that the role of business is to provide jobs for "We the People". Businesses are in the business of making money for their owner(s) by providing products or services that their customers will purchase. Depending on the business this MAY (or may not) include the hiring of people who are basically a resource for that business to use. Businesses are not in the business of providing jobs. Should customers decide not to buy said product or service either permanently or temporarily the company has to decide how best to stay in business. Sometimes this means eliminating excess resources. Some businesses try very hard NOT to eliminate their human resources, some not so much. Some companies ask their employees to pay more of the cost of health insurance (I'm still trying to remember when it became the companies responsibilty to provide health care), pay more for their retirement, take a paycut, but if none of these are either accepted by the employees or just aren't enough then the hard decisons have to take place. Been through this on both sides.
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Old 12-01-2011, 09:38 AM   #101
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There was a thread about Steve Jobs a few weeks ago when he died, here's a follow up on all that Apple did for the US Apple's American job disaster | Philadelphia Inquirer | 11/20/2011 typical of Us corporate culture
I've never understood the unwavering fanboy following of Apple or Steve Jobs. Apple is one of the most closed minded computer companies out there, I listened for years as Apple screamed about how monopolistic Microsoft was and Apple was/is just as bad and how they handle their China operations is appalling but people ignored it until recently. They have always claimed they are an open company and they don't allow clones to the hardware is more stable etc.. bull, it was to force people to buy an Apple product or nothing and it almost killed them, almost.

Jobs first job was to reduce the amount of chips on a circuit board so he brought in Wozniak for his help. Wozniak did such a good job and reduced the amount of chips by such a significant amount Jobs got a $5,000 bonus, of which he shared none of it with Wozniak. The Woz has been pretty quiet about his early dealings with Jobs but they must have gotten along good enough to start Apple right?

Steve Jobs was a good marketer and he had a good feel for the pulse of what people would want to buy. Nobody could present new products better than Steve Jobs, one look at Bill Gates presenting a product and you could see who was better at it. Funny though, without Bill Gates in 1997 Apple would not be where its at today, anybody remember what happened?

Are Apple products superior? As somebody who has repaired them for better than 2 decades I can easily say NO. They dress them up better and fool people into paying a lot more for less or equal performance and some how get these people to hold their noses up if people don't agree that Apple rules. The smug attitude of so many Mac owners is such that you could charge them more and they would be happy to pay it, I don't but I know I could. Don't get me wrong, many are nice as well but I'm talking about averages here, the average PC owner I meet is nothing like the average Mac owner I meet and it would take a different thread to explain it, but those of you who are in the field for as long as I have been will get my meaning.

I currently own an iPad, newer MacBook Pro and a Mac Pro and can honestly say the iPad crashes more than any device I have ever owned (ok, not as bad as Windows ME) and my MacBook Pro when I first bought it ran Windows great until it froze and a cold boot was needed to get it going again. Updates have fixed the problem but I almost returned it, I kept it because I work on them and when you go to a client that runs Mac's, you better be sporting a Mac.

My Mac Pro has been a solid machine, but for the $2,800.00 I paid for it back in 2008 there were far faster just as stable machines available for the money.

Having said all this I like their products, but I am fully aware of how they produce them and how many jobs were lost when they pulled up anchor. Apple is a predatory company and it became that way because that's how Steve Job's rebuilt it. Now that he is gone, I believe the same thing will happen that almost happened the last time he was gone, the company slowly began sinking. This time he won't be there to save it and I doubt Bill Gates will be there with the money to help either.

Just my 50 cents worth...
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Old 12-01-2011, 10:53 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by wildtoad View Post
The Constitution, bill of rights, et al refer SOLEY to the interaction between "We the people" and the various levels of governement. The primary intent is that government is limited to the powers that "We the People" grant them and essentially our elected officials work for US and we can fire them at the next election. It has very little to do with business. That is why as an example, freedom of speech does not protect you from being fired if you call your boss an ass.

Some people seem to feel that the role of business is to provide jobs for "We the People". Businesses are in the business of making money for their owner(s) by providing products or services that their customers will purchase. Depending on the business this MAY (or may not) include the hiring of people who are basically a resource for that business to use. Businesses are not in the business of providing jobs. Should customers decide not to buy said product or service either permanently or temporarily the company has to decide how best to stay in business. Sometimes this means eliminating excess resources. Some businesses try very hard NOT to eliminate their human resources, some not so much. Some companies ask their employees to pay more of the cost of health insurance (I'm still trying to remember when it became the companies responsibilty to provide health care), pay more for their retirement, take a paycut, but if none of these are either accepted by the employees or just aren't enough then the hard decisons have to take place. Been through this on both sides.
Tom, I to have read the Constitution and Bill of Rights and agree they do not address the issues at hand. I was merely pointing out that we are a country of the people and by the people, it seems as though the Banking and Business class is taking control, where as the control should go as set out in those papers to the majority, not the richest among us. Of course if a business can't make a profit it will fail, but what profit? Should business have no responsibility to the common good? Should they benefit from legislation written by lobbyists? If things continue as they are going there will be no middle class, it will be driven out of existence by the greed of the corporations, now is profit motive good, yes, is profit at all costs good, I don't the we as a Nation can survive that. In my 45 year work career I can only name 2 companies that were run morally, I'm talking about their dealings within the business community not workers. I've seen the president of 1 company laugh as he spoke to the comptroller about holding up payments to subcontractors my any means possible so they could invest the float and make more money off of other folks money. He was probably the most immoral person I've ever met, he took joy in screwing the subcontractors. Then there's Donald Trump, who gained his wealth by not paying subcontractors at all, he would wait until they filed suit and then offer pennies on the dollar when the subs were on the ropes.
Sound business practices I guess by your definition is maximizing profits by any legal means, but it is totally immoral. To answer your question about health care payments, they were negotiated through Union contracts, agreed to by both sides. Without Unions we would be living in 19th Century conditions. These are the facts as I see them, you are entitled to your own set of facts.
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Old 12-01-2011, 12:37 PM   #103
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Mike, the problem with trying to intervene in the morality of companies is that it takes the government to do that and we have great examples of how moral governments are. I hope that pointing out specific ones is necessary.

The practice of grinding subs is indeed widespread. We have a contractor who is notorious for causing construction subs to remain at near the poverty level. I can tell you that the grand daddy of all of the "sub squeezers" is General Motors. They have come very close to putting even large sub-contractors out of business. By contrast, there are organizations like Outback Steakhouse, who not only developed a respectful relationship with their subs but took those same subs International with them to the benefit of all.

I personally believe in free will. I believe that companies should be able to exercise free will, to a point, as well. It is not a perfect system. But I cannot find a single example of where government intervention at any level made a bad company situation better. Attempts to breed the perceived inequities out of the free market system through government simply produces a different level of and mostly worse inequities. Communism and Christianity have both been trying to overcome the basic greed of man for a very long time and neither have had good results.

Unions, like government, have a history of tackling real problems, making some improvements and then turning the results into the a level of corruption that most people will never completely understand. I've been a member of multiple unions and my brother worked his whole career under one. For every good thing that happened, there were at least 5 bad things. I don't personally like those odds. To my way of thinking, the difference between Al Capone and Jimmy Hoffa was almost non-existent. I'm all for the union working with a business to the protection of its members. A union working with the government neither protects its members in any good way nor provides benefit to the taxpayers who are required to fund it. In that scenario, there appears to be no way to control the union to keep it from trying to manipulate the government including elections to detriment of all of us. A symbiotic relationship between governments and unions will never be a good thing.

Unless and until we get back to individual responsibility, we will continue to suffer as a society. If I don't like my job, I can and should change it. I don't want a union to control it and I don't want to be forced into a union that I didn't agree to. That's why I live in Texas, a right to work State. The whole idea of States competing against one another to produce the most attractive place for us to live is good for this country in the long run and it should not be "homogenized" by either the Federal government or unions.
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Old 12-01-2011, 01:00 PM   #104
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Mike, the problem with trying to intervene in the morality of companies is that it takes the government to do that and we have great examples of how moral governments are. I hope that pointing out specific ones is necessary.

The practice of grinding subs is indeed widespread. We have a contractor who is notorious for causing construction subs to remain at near the poverty level. I can tell you that the grand daddy of all of the "sub squeezers" is General Motors. They have come very close to putting even large sub-contractors out of business. By contrast, there are organizations like Outback Steakhouse, who not only developed a respectful relationship with their subs but took those same subs International with them to the benefit of all.

I personally believe in free will. I believe that companies should be able to exercise free will, to a point, as well. It is not a perfect system. But I cannot find a single example of where government intervention at any level made a bad company situation better. Attempts to breed the perceived inequities out of the free market system through government simply produces a different level of and mostly worse inequities. Communism and Christianity have both been trying to overcome the basic greed of man for a very long time and neither have had good results.

Unions, like government, have a history of tackling real problems, making some improvements and then turning the results into the a level of corruption that most people will never completely understand. I've been a member of multiple unions and my brother worked his whole career under one. For every good thing that happened, there were at least 5 bad things. I don't personally like those odds. To my way of thinking, the difference between Al Capone and Jimmy Hoffa was almost non-existent. I'm all for the union working with a business to the protection of its members. A union working with the government neither protects its members in any good way nor provides benefit to the taxpayers who are required to fund it. In that scenario, there appears to be no way to control the union to keep it from trying to manipulate the government including elections to detriment of all of us. A symbiotic relationship between governments and unions will never be a good thing.

Unless and until we get back to individual responsibility, we will continue to suffer as a society. If I don't like my job, I can and should change it. I don't want a union to control it and I don't want to be forced into a union that I didn't agree to. That's why I live in Texas, a right to work State. The whole idea of States cohabgempeting against one another to produce the most attractive place for us to live is good for this country in the long run and it should not be "homogenized" by either the Federal government or unions.
I agree it's not the governments job to make a company act in a moral way, it is ours as consumers. We need to do business with moral companies, I realize that's a very limited group, but if the consumer doesn't punish their immoral actions they will never change. Again Unions have a place in the world, they are not the answer to every problem in every situation, but without the threat of unionization business will trample the workers. Just the threat of unionization compels business to treat folks better.
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Old 12-03-2011, 09:34 AM   #105
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I've never understood the unwavering fanboy following of Apple or Steve Jobs. Apple is one of the most closed minded computer companies out there, I listened for years as Apple screamed about how monopolistic Microsoft was and Apple was/is just as bad and how they handle their China operations is appalling but people ignored it until recently. They have always claimed they are an open company and they don't allow clones to the hardware is more stable etc.. bull, it was to force people to buy an Apple product or nothing and it almost killed them, almost.

Jobs first job was to reduce the amount of chips on a circuit board so he brought in Wozniak for his help. Wozniak did such a good job and reduced the amount of chips by such a significant amount Jobs got a $5,000 bonus, of which he shared none of it with Wozniak. The Woz has been pretty quiet about his early dealings with Jobs but they must have gotten along good enough to start Apple right?

Steve Jobs was a good marketer and he had a good feel for the pulse of what people would want to buy. Nobody could present new products better than Steve Jobs, one look at Bill Gates presenting a product and you could see who was better at it. Funny though, without Bill Gates in 1997 Apple would not be where its at today, anybody remember what happened?

Are Apple products superior? As somebody who has repaired them for better than 2 decades I can easily say NO. They dress them up better and fool people into paying a lot more for less or equal performance and some how get these people to hold their noses up if people don't agree that Apple rules. The smug attitude of so many Mac owners is such that you could charge them more and they would be happy to pay it, I don't but I know I could. Don't get me wrong, many are nice as well but I'm talking about averages here, the average PC owner I meet is nothing like the average Mac owner I meet and it would take a different thread to explain it, but those of you who are in the field for as long as I have been will get my meaning.

I currently own an iPad, newer MacBook Pro and a Mac Pro and can honestly say the iPad crashes more than any device I have ever owned (ok, not as bad as Windows ME) and my MacBook Pro when I first bought it ran Windows great until it froze and a cold boot was needed to get it going again. Updates have fixed the problem but I almost returned it, I kept it because I work on them and when you go to a client that runs Mac's, you better be sporting a Mac.

My Mac Pro has been a solid machine, but for the $2,800.00 I paid for it back in 2008 there were far faster just as stable machines available for the money.

Having said all this I like their products, but I am fully aware of how they produce them and how many jobs were lost when they pulled up anchor. Apple is a predatory company and it became that way because that's how Steve Job's rebuilt it. Now that he is gone, I believe the same thing will happen that almost happened the last time he was gone, the company slowly began sinking. This time he won't be there to save it and I doubt Bill Gates will be there with the money to help either.

Just my 50 cents worth...
Eric, my first computer in 1989 was a Macintosh, now I was a complete novice in the world of computers, what drew me to it was the GUI even a person with no experience could use it. Stuck by Apple for the next 10 years or so, then the price they wanted became an issue. Bought my first Dell Windows machine, now windows gave me my GUI so I still didn't need to know much about the language of computers But Windows was much less stable. This continued until the release of XP things got much better and I could fix most of my own screw ups. Now I'm on my latest Dell laptop running 7, pretty good just kind of treats everyone as if they know nothing about computers. Now the issue of service when I had Apples I would call service and speak to some one with English as their first language, if it needed service the would send a prepaid mailer. Done deal. With Dell that has become an issue, the language barrier is immense, they have a script they must use, calling Dell service leaves me with a 2 day headache. If you buy the home service package the service itself is quite good. If I could get apple phone service with Dell in home service I'd be a happy camper. I wish Apple was the Company of the 80s with the products of the 21 century. O well
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Old 12-04-2011, 09:44 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by EndeavorV10

I've never understood the unwavering fanboy following of Apple or Steve Jobs. Apple is one of the most closed minded computer companies out there, I listened for years as Apple screamed about how monopolistic Microsoft was and Apple was/is just as bad and how they handle their China operations is appalling but people ignored it until recently. They have always claimed they are an open company and they don't allow clones to the hardware is more stable etc.. bull, it was to force people to buy an Apple product or nothing and it almost killed them, almost.

Jobs first job was to reduce the amount of chips on a circuit board so he brought in Wozniak for his help. Wozniak did such a good job and reduced the amount of chips by such a significant amount Jobs got a $5,000 bonus, of which he shared none of it with Wozniak. The Woz has been pretty quiet about his early dealings with Jobs but they must have gotten along good enough to start Apple right?

Steve Jobs was a good marketer and he had a good feel for the pulse of what people would want to buy. Nobody could present new products better than Steve Jobs, one look at Bill Gates presenting a product and you could see who was better at it. Funny though, without Bill Gates in 1997 Apple would not be where its at today, anybody remember what happened?

Are Apple products superior? As somebody who has repaired them for better than 2 decades I can easily say NO. They dress them up better and fool people into paying a lot more for less or equal performance and some how get these people to hold their noses up if people don't agree that Apple rules. The smug attitude of so many Mac owners is such that you could charge them more and they would be happy to pay it, I don't but I know I could. Don't get me wrong, many are nice as well but I'm talking about averages here, the average PC owner I meet is nothing like the average Mac owner I meet and it would take a different thread to explain it, but those of you who are in the field for as long as I have been will get my meaning.

I currently own an iPad, newer MacBook Pro and a Mac Pro and can honestly say the iPad crashes more than any device I have ever owned (ok, not as bad as Windows ME) and my MacBook Pro when I first bought it ran Windows great until it froze and a cold boot was needed to get it going again. Updates have fixed the problem but I almost returned it, I kept it because I work on them and when you go to a client that runs Mac's, you better be sporting a Mac.

My Mac Pro has been a solid machine, but for the $2,800.00 I paid for it back in 2008 there were far faster just as stable machines available for the money.

Having said all this I like their products, but I am fully aware of how they produce them and how many jobs were lost when they pulled up anchor. Apple is a predatory company and it became that way because that's how Steve Job's rebuilt it. Now that he is gone, I believe the same thing will happen that almost happened the last time he was gone, the company slowly began sinking. This time he won't be there to save it and I doubt Bill Gates will be there with the money to help either.

Just my 50 cents worth...
First, much respect for your thoughts. I do have to disagree with product performance, at least due to my limited experience. I have had both the iPad 1 and now the iPad 2 with nothing but great results, been through the iPhone 1, 3, and now 4; in fact, got a wild hair a few months back and paid bucks to switch to a blackberry phone and BB Playbook which I absolutely hated due to limited functions, programs and apps and wound up paying bucks to switch back, and have had the MacBook Pro, a G4 and now one of the 11" Mac Air's which I actually did have a major lock up about 6 months back. I took it in to the Shop, got with one of the resident Genius's who spent 45 minutes before declaring it fixed, started it up to show me when it crashed again. He grabbed his boss who was actually leaving. He in turn spent another 2 hours completely wiping out everything, reloading all programs, and running a series of tests to check everything. Then demonstrated everything to me to be sure I understood, shook my hand and charged me absolutely nothing. Nothing at all like the experience I had several years back when I had problems with my Sony Viao which I took back to the repair shop at Best Buy, waited in line 45 minutes to speak with 3 people who were clueless and prefered to ignore me. I have never had a virus with any of my Apple's, unlike my windows based units which were constantly being bombed. Both products and service have always been above and beyond on all of my Apple products. Yes, there are cheaper items, but I would be hard pressed to say they are comparable. Again, I am not a Computor tech and have very limited skills over the basics, I go only on service, performance, and experience. Have a great one.
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Old 12-05-2011, 08:47 AM   #107
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First, much respect for your thoughts. I do have to disagree with product performance, at least due to my limited experience. I have had both the iPad 1 and now the iPad 2 with nothing but great results, been through the iPhone 1, 3, and now 4; in fact, got a wild hair a few months back and paid bucks to switch to a blackberry phone and BB Playbook which I absolutely hated due to limited functions, programs and apps and wound up paying bucks to switch back, and have had the MacBook Pro, a G4 and now one of the 11" Mac Air's which I actually did have a major lock up about 6 months back. I took it in to the Shop, got with one of the resident Genius's who spent 45 minutes before declaring it fixed, started it up to show me when it crashed again. He grabbed his boss who was actually leaving. He in turn spent another 2 hours completely wiping out everything, reloading all programs, and running a series of tests to check everything. Then demonstrated everything to me to be sure I understood, shook my hand and charged me absolutely nothing. Nothing at all like the experience I had several years back when I had problems with my Sony Viao which I took back to the repair shop at Best Buy, waited in line 45 minutes to speak with 3 people who were clueless and prefered to ignore me. I have never had a virus with any of my Apple's, unlike my windows based units which were constantly being bombed. Both products and service have always been above and beyond on all of my Apple products. Yes, there are cheaper items, but I would be hard pressed to say they are comparable. Again, I am not a Computor tech and have very limited skills over the basics, I go only on service, performance, and experience. Have a great one.
I'm glad it worked out so well for you, having been dealing with Apple since they became a company I can tell you long term the bad has out weighed the good but it's always good to hear the positive.

You have never had a virus on your Mac because 99.99999% of the script kiddies and virus writers ignore the Mac because it's install base is simply too small to make it worth while. However, this is changing.

Virus's do happen in the OS X world and in fact there was a large outbreak recently that Apple tried to cover up and if it affected you, they would claim it was impossible. Public pressure finally got them to own up to it.

Best Buy can't be compared to Apple stores, BB sells everything, Apple only sells their own computers so you should get better service from the Apple store.

I am what you might consider an insane power user. I use my gear much more to its fullest potential than the average person so I find weaknesses very quickly. I am still happy with my Mac Pro mostly, the MacBook Pro, not so much. I have never owned a Windows PC that I didn't build for myself so I can only say if you buy a cheap computer you shouldn't expect stability period, if you buy a decent computer it should be stable. I have never had an issue with stability in the workplace or at home except in the case of Windows ME, which was a turd and Microsoft dropped it so fast it was just a foot note, but a blemish none the less.

Having used Windows since 1.0 I can tell you they aren't perfect, but they have to build a product to run on thousands of different computer types, Apple has to build for only a few and they make them. Cut Microsoft some slack here since they operate in a much more open environment than Apple does.

I hope Apple products continue to work out for you but try to keep an open mind about where they produce their product, how many people are affected by Foxconn/Apple policies and keep in mind there is no reason for Apple to be that much more expensive than other top gear, but they are because they know like Starbucks, the perception is better product, but reality can be quite different.

Have a Merry Christmas!
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Old 12-05-2011, 08:54 AM   #108
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Eric, my first computer in 1989 was a Macintosh, now I was a complete novice in the world of computers, what drew me to it was the GUI even a person with no experience could use it. Stuck by Apple for the next 10 years or so, then the price they wanted became an issue. Bought my first Dell Windows machine, now windows gave me my GUI so I still didn't need to know much about the language of computers But Windows was much less stable. This continued until the release of XP things got much better and I could fix most of my own screw ups. Now I'm on my latest Dell laptop running 7, pretty good just kind of treats everyone as if they know nothing about computers. Now the issue of service when I had Apples I would call service and speak to some one with English as their first language, if it needed service the would send a prepaid mailer. Done deal. With Dell that has become an issue, the language barrier is immense, they have a script they must use, calling Dell service leaves me with a 2 day headache. If you buy the home service package the service itself is quite good. If I could get apple phone service with Dell in home service I'd be a happy camper. I wish Apple was the Company of the 80s with the products of the 21 century. O well
Thankfully I don't have to call any of the computer companies support lines 9 times out of 10. I can understand the frustration regarding Dell.

However, as for stability of Windows it's only as good as what it's installed on. Typically people blame Windows for a crash when more often the issue is poor drivers or poor hardware or 9 times out of 10 the person using the computer. I could tell you stories of 30 years of computer support that would curl your hair.

I'm not calling Windows perfect or even great, but then either is OS X, but then OS X only has to run on a very limited amount of controlled hardware, Windows has to run on whatever Tom, Dick or Harry throw it on.

Just my 2 cents.
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Old 12-05-2011, 09:37 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by EndeavorV10 View Post
Thankfully I don't have to call any of the computer companies support lines 9 times out of 10. I can understand the frustration regarding Dell.

However, as for stability of Windows it's only as good as what it's installed on. Typically people blame Windows for a crash when more often the issue is poor drivers or poor hardware or 9 times out of 10 the person using the computer. I could tell you stories of 30 years of computer support that would curl your hair.

I'm not calling Windows perfect or even great, but then either is OS X, but then OS X only has to run on a very limited amount of controlled hardware, Windows has to run on whatever Tom, Dick or Harry throw it on.

Just my 2 cents.
I'll make it 4 cents... Agree totally. Apple controls who develops software for their system so they can have 100% control. That's a good thing IF everyone had Apple. In the early days you couldn't run an Apple in your business because almost everyone used Word Perfect and other 3ed party software on their PC's so you couldn't transfer files or really talk to each other.

That's what hurt Apple where Gates said everyone was welcome to design software for the PC and gave out source code. Thousands of software programs were written for PC's where Apple had a limited choice.

MicroSoft just shot themselves in the foot when they went to 64 bit/Windows 7 and didn't make it backward compatible. My software program uses 24 different .exe files which would take over 5 years to rewrite so you will never see it on Windows 7. They lost a lot of good programs and programmers that won't be back.
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Old 12-06-2011, 07:35 AM   #110
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Just to add my 1/2 cent.

Remember Apple and Microsoft are selling different things. Apple sells computers, Microsoft sells(licenses) software. After the sale they have different obligations. Apple has an obligation for your computer to work, Microsoft has no obligation to make your computer work. Microsoft wants to be the gate keeper for something you already own, so they can charge you for access to it.

I've had several hardware failures on the Mac's I've owned over the years. They are not perfect. The last PC I built worked for years until the video board failed.I still favor the Mac for the user interface, although I must admit I like the Windows 7 I use in an emulator.
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Old 12-06-2011, 08:33 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billieg View Post
I'll make it 4 cents... Agree totally. Apple controls who develops software for their system so they can have 100% control. That's a good thing IF everyone had Apple. In the early days you couldn't run an Apple in your business because almost everyone used Word Perfect and other 3ed party software on their PC's so you couldn't transfer files or really talk to each other.

That's what hurt Apple where Gates said everyone was welcome to design software for the PC and gave out source code. Thousands of software programs were written for PC's where Apple had a limited choice.

MicroSoft just shot themselves in the foot when they went to 64 bit/Windows 7 and didn't make it backward compatible. My software program uses 24 different .exe files which would take over 5 years to rewrite so you will never see it on Windows 7. They lost a lot of good programs and programmers that won't be back.
I don't agree that Microsoft shot themselves in the foot. They went 64bit because computer hardware is advancing. You can of course also run Windows 7 32bit (if you don't mind only 3.5gigs of memory being addressable), nobody is forced to use 64bit unless they are buying it that way, that's their choice.

Also, Windows 7 can run Windows XP at the same time if your CPU supports it and most do these days. Windows 7 64bit can also run many 32bit applications, there are ways to do it. There is no excuse for your program not to work with Windows 7 in some way.

If it takes 5 years to re-write just 24 different .exe's and the dll's etc.. that go with it, I would fire the programmers. There is no excuse for that kind of turn around time unless 1 guy is writing the code.

OS's progress, they advance as do the programmers writing the applications for it. Microsoft hasn't lost any good programs or programmers to Windows 7, all of the good ones have been or are being ported to be used in Windows 7 and then Windows 8 after. If they aren't they aren't worth keeping.
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Old 12-06-2011, 08:36 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Coma View Post
Just to add my 1/2 cent.

Remember Apple and Microsoft are selling different things. Apple sells computers, Microsoft sells(licenses) software. After the sale they have different obligations. Apple has an obligation for your computer to work, Microsoft has no obligation to make your computer work. Microsoft wants to be the gate keeper for something you already own, so they can charge you for access to it.

I've had several hardware failures on the Mac's I've owned over the years. They are not perfect. The last PC I built worked for years until the video board failed.I still favor the Mac for the user interface, although I must admit I like the Windows 7 I use in an emulator.
Agreed about Microsoft, I'm torn on the interface, when I use my Mac I like it, when I switch over to Windows I like it as well but for different reasons.
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