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Old 11-06-2011, 02:05 PM   #29
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Were the miners unionized?
Yes, I was a teamster for 22 years and had breaks in sevice due to reductions in shifts and ended up with a pension of $83.00 monthy Pension. I was a Union Steward for 10 of those years and witnessed the corruption from within and stood against it at every turn costing me greatly...Unions were great when they were instituted but like everything else they received to much power and greed took over amongst them. Now we are witnessing the back lash and rightfully so. I can only relate to my life experiences and I am sure there are many people that will disagree because they are living the good life getting $80,000 and upward a year in retirement but who is paying for it our future generations. I might come across as disgruntled but I am not...I have had a blessed life and am thankful for all that I have in friendships, family and thank the good Lord everyday for them. I have been retired for 9 years and am in relative good health...
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Old 11-06-2011, 02:16 PM   #30
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Just a thought, Europe is highly unionized and I don't see Airbus moving to China, Mercedes either? So what is the real problem, could be that European companies feel a sense of nationalism? Don't know but blaming the unions is the easy way out.
Boeing was not started by our government unlike Airbus. Airbus was put together by France, Germany & the UK in 1967 with tremendous subsidy.

Mercedes picked the right-of-work states to build their vehicles in the US. Same as most other foreign companies. Just a coincidence?
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Old 11-06-2011, 02:18 PM   #31
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This has been going on since the 1970's. I worked at the Eagle Mountain Mines, located in Desert Center Ca., in 1969 and 70. Kaiser Steel owned the mines and built processing plants that pelletized our raw iron ore in to small ball bearing and then shipped them to Japan for processing. Japan would make bridge, building girders and other types of steel products and ship them back to the U.S. cheaper then we could produce the same products at Kaiser Steel in Fontana, Ca. Sorry Union Guy but this is what broke Kaiser Steel, Betheleham Steel, Pittsburgh Steel. The Union Contract in Fontana allowed top end wages, three month vacations every five years for their workers and top in health insurance...Granted, the companies agreed to these contracts but the greed of the Union Workers are what broke the Company and it continues today in all fields...California Union Retirements have put this state into bankruptsy along with ingnorant, graft corrupted politician's bought and paid for by the Unions. The Wall street protest's along with several other cities are being financed and sponsored by left wing raticals[moderator edit]. It is time for a total change or our Nation is doomed as we know it. Just an old guy venting.
Again in Europe the heavy unionized workers get 6 weeks a year vacation, are paid equivalent of American wages, yet their companies are not flocking to China, where workers labor 10-12 hours, 6-7 days a week, live in dormitories and eat rice 3 meals a day. That is certainly what we all should strive for if we were living in the 18th century. The common folks in the US just want to live as well as our parents did.
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Old 11-06-2011, 02:21 PM   #32
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Boeing was not started by our government unlike Airbus. Airbus was put together by France, Germany & the UK in 1967 with tremendous subsidy.

Mercedes picked the right-of-work states to build their vehicles in the US. Same as most other foreign companies. Just a coincidence?
Are you saying that the Americans in the right to work states are worth less than European workers? So you're saying that the European Unions are causing companies to out source to the US?
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Old 11-06-2011, 02:29 PM   #33
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Yes, I was a teamster for 22 years and had breaks in sevice due to reductions in shifts and ended up with a pension of $83.00 monthy Pension. I was a Union Steward for 10 of those years and witnessed the corruption from within and stood against it at every turn costing me greatly...Unions were great when they were instituted but like everything else they received to much power and greed took over amongst them. Now we are witnessing the back lash and rightfully so. I can only relate to my life experiences and I am sure there are many people that will disagree because they are living the good life getting $80,000 and upward a year in retirement but who is paying for it our future generations. I might come across as disgruntled but I am not...I have had a blessed life and am thankful for all that I have in friendships, family and thank the good Lord everyday for them. I have been retired for 9 years and am in relative good health...
Yes there is corruption in some unions, in some politics and in some of everything that happens where corruption pays big returns, it's called life. Should we strive to reduce it yes, lets start at the top CEO's that make 1000 times what a worker makes, without the unions there would be NO middle class in this country!
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Old 11-06-2011, 03:28 PM   #34
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Yes there is corruption in some unions, in some politics and in some of everything that happens where corruption pays big returns, it's called life. Should we strive to reduce it yes, lets start at the top CEO's that make 1000 times what a worker makes, without the unions there would be NO middle class in this country!
Not gonna touch the union vs non union subject with a very long stick. Too much like discussing religion, race and politics - you will always PO someone

BUT - I did get some good GE news on Saturday. They are going to issue a 13th pension check.
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Old 11-06-2011, 04:00 PM   #35
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Are you saying that the Americans in the right to work states are worth less than European workers? So you're saying that the European Unions are causing companies to out source to the US?
I suspect that most if not all foreign companies that decide to build plants here in the US will choose right to work states to avoid having to deal with the unions. Here in the Carolinas we have great people who want to work for a fair wage and benefits and no risk of work stopages. It is absurd what the NLRB is doing to Boeing.

Why did BMW choose to build a plant here in the US? Might have to do with import duties, cheaper to build here than in Europe. Good people in SC have proven they can build good cars and work with management for a fair wage.

It is a matter of opinion that the unions created the middle class. Many right to work states have a thriving middle class. It is also an opinion that these same unions have contributed to companies looking for less expensive offshore labor.

I wonder how many union families who complain about companies outsourcing to China, Korea, Vietnam, etc shop at Walmart, Rooms to Go, etc for the low prices.
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Old 11-06-2011, 06:20 PM   #36
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Are you saying that the Americans in the right to work states are worth less than European workers? So you're saying that the European Unions are causing companies to out source to the US?
Nope: Companies go to where they're appreciated, less regulated and have more predictable environments. So to address your question I would say that employees are worth more in this setting.
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Old 11-06-2011, 08:18 PM   #37
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Nope: Companies go to where they're appreciated, less regulated and have more predictable environments. So to address your question I would say that employees are worth more in this setting.
Then why are they paid substantially less in wages and benefits than their European counterparts?
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Old 11-06-2011, 09:44 PM   #38
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Just a thought, Europe is highly unionized and I don't see Airbus moving to China, Mercedes either? So what is the real problem, could be that European companies feel a sense of nationalism? Don't know but blaming the unions is the easy way out.
Airbus is a Government subsidized company.. It cant leave. It actually operated at a loss with tax money making up the difference. Its stated goal is to put Boeing out of business.

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Yes, I was a teamster for 22 years and had breaks in sevice due to reductions in shifts and ended up with a pension of $83.00 monthy Pension. I was a Union Steward for 10 of those years and witnessed the corruption from within and stood against it at every turn costing me greatly...Unions were great when they were instituted but like everything else they received to much power and greed took over amongst them. Now we are witnessing the back lash and rightfully so. I can only relate to my life experiences and I am sure there are many people that will disagree because they are living the good life getting $80,000 and upward a year in retirement but who is paying for it our future generations. I might come across as disgruntled but I am not...I have had a blessed life and am thankful for all that I have in friendships, family and thank the good Lord everyday for them. I have been retired for 9 years and am in relative good health...
Agreed!! Union and government 'regulations' (to please the unions) are doing most of the damage.

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Again in Europe the heavy unionized workers get 6 weeks a year vacation, are paid equivalent of American wages, yet their companies are not flocking to China, where workers labor 10-12 hours, 6-7 days a week, live in dormitories and eat rice 3 meals a day. That is certainly what we all should strive for if we were living in the 18th century. The common folks in the US just want to live as well as our parents did.
I'm sorry, have you been reading the news? The EU IS BROKE! The pay, the vacations, the
benefits, etc are ALL going away. Greece is done.Flat done. The EuroZone Banks just took a 50% LOSS on Greek debt. 50%! Now 2 of them have announced they might go under due to the overwhelming welching on the debts. Britain laid off 20,000 government employees. Italy is going the way of Greece with the PM about to get impeached. Etc, etc.. Ya, Europe is a GREAT example of how we should run things
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Then why are they paid substantially less in wages and benefits than their European counterparts?
Again, that wont be true for long. And, its not 'substantially more'. Especially when you see how much of that pay the Europeans give back in taxes...
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Old 11-07-2011, 06:34 AM   #39
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Then why are they paid substantially less in wages and benefits than their European counterparts?
That all depends on what measure you are using. Why have so many in the non-union work force voted against unionizing? Is it really because they are just not enlightened. i.e. not-so-smart, no way. There is the big picture as in anything. In regard to gross wages you are correct, they get paid more... for now. But if I give you $10 more per hour and take back $12 over and above in taxes are you really paid more? America has excelled for many reasons but our cost of living index is one of the best in the world.
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Old 11-07-2011, 01:01 PM   #40
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That all depends on what measure you are using. Why have so many in the non-union work force voted against unionizing? Is it really because they are just not enlightened. i.e. not-so-smart, no way. There is the big picture as in anything. In regard to gross wages you are correct, they get paid more... for now. But if I give you $10 more per hour and take back $12 over and above in taxes are you really paid more? America has excelled for many reasons but our cost of living index is one of the best in the world.
Not everyone wants a union that's their choice, but in the grand scheme of things unions serve an important role by establishing a basis for everyone to strive for in wages and working conditions.
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Old 11-07-2011, 02:06 PM   #41
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I am always for this type of debate, one gets to see all view points and can add or subtract by kicking their two cents in...The World is in total collapse and unless we, as a nation, put the brakes on our plight will make the great depression look like childs play. We must bite the bullet now and suffer a little as to let the system keep adding debt to our economy. The bail out was a mistake that should have never been made and the longer we allow the welfare state to prevail the worse it will get...darn I love this forum....great stuff. Old guy venting again.
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Old 11-07-2011, 03:49 PM   #42
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