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Old 06-17-2015, 08:47 AM   #1
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Government Intrusion

I came across this story via FB... Pretty incredible how intrusive our government has become.. guess it's ok to have free-range chickens.. but heaven forbid you have free-range kids !!

BREAKING: Police Seize 6 Children Simply Because Family Was Camping | Off The Grid News

Be careful out there !!!
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Old 06-17-2015, 09:00 AM   #2
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Wonder about the people that called in to complain. I can understand the police checking things out as they would have to respond to a call but things get out of hand when "following the book" replaces common sense.

Of course the headline is pretty misleading. "CAMPING' implies a temporary vacation. Reading the article it appears the tent was the only "home" the family had and it didn't provide basic health facilities such as running water etc.

Wonder how people feel about the safety and welfare of children living in a car or pick-up truck. I guess that's OK.
After all we don't want our government meddling in our personal affares, you know like telling us to ignore medical advice from our Doctor.
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Old 06-17-2015, 10:35 AM   #3
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They did have a house/home according to the article. Wonder how these cops would do a hundred years ago when people got water from the creek and create a Lord in an outhouse or heaven forbid per in TT he woods. There was most likely more to the story not reported. I hope they don't watch TV my God those maybe Americans do t subsistence life style in Alaska.
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Old 06-17-2015, 10:44 AM   #4
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My primary thoughts on this are political and thus prohibited on these forums but I have heard of some places passing laws to force folks to be "On the grid" as it were. now in some cases I do undrstand them.

But..Well.. I recall a story many years ago about the IRS confiscating a couple's children to make them pay their taxes.. I do know how that turned out (BAD for the IRS) and I hope this family takes positive action against the county.
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Old 06-17-2015, 02:33 PM   #5
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Interesting article.

But too bad there was not enough room in it to discuss the following:

What was the temperature in Otsego County during the period of May 10 to May 19 when they were 'camping' with six children ages 7 months to 17 years. I believe Otsego County is at the north end of the upper peninsula of Michigan.

How far away from the site was the State Park which was to be used for showering and bathe?

How did the children go to school during this period?

How safe was the heating and cooking facilities using inside the tents?

How long were the adults away on the shopping and laundry trip?

Was there some specific reason that the 15 year old could not assist one of the parents with the laundry and shopping while the other adult stayed on-site to look after the other children?

What support does a 17 year old need with Cerebral Palsy?

Somehow I do not think I will find the answers to these questions.
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Old 06-17-2015, 03:06 PM   #6
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Just remember you are only getting one side of the story here and having had to investigate things like this over 30 years in LE, the last things cops want to do is take kids away from their parents. I really don't think they were just out camping as reported by the parents as they even make the statement that they were trying it to see if it would work full time. Whenever there is question as to the health and welfare of kids ( they had an infant and 2 year old too in addition to all the other kids) LE has to air on the side of caution. I remember one case where we took two kids out of a home due to a neglect situation, unfortunately the courts ordered the kids to be returned to the parents. About 6-8 weeks later we responded back to a Medical Aid at the same house, one of the kids died of malnutrition, yes they let a 3 year old child starve to death. Now it's even worse, one sibling dead, both parents in jail, one child in a foster home, and the family suing the PD for not keeping the kids the first time. Not that we really cared about the lawsuit as that was dismissed, but we all cared about the poor child and will never forget that string of calls to the house where we were helpless in protecting him. So for them to take the kids I'm sure there was a whole lot more to the story. Who leaves an infant, a two year old, and a child with a handicapping situation with a 15 year old boy, out in the woods.
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Old 06-17-2015, 03:07 PM   #7
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I can answer one of those questions.

How safe was the heating inside the tents.... Some years ago..Not eitierly sure but 1971 give or take 1 year.. A man made a bet with one of his friends that he would be comfortable sleeping on the __ green of the local golf course (I also forget the number) on a specific day in late january.

IT blew right through -40 that night..Homes arcoss the north (Including th town where this golf course was located) were cold because at -40 propane REMAINS A LIQUID and furnace oil can gel up on you and not feed the fire.

The man in the pup tent out on the golf course with no heat other than his body and an ARTIC rated sleeping bag had the best night's sleep of anyone in that town that day.
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Old 06-17-2015, 03:18 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by wa8yxm View Post
I can answer one of those questions.

How safe was the heating inside the tents.... Some years ago..Not eitierly sure but 1971 give or take 1 year.. A man made a bet with one of his friends that he would be comfortable sleeping on the __ green of the local golf course (I also forget the number) on a specific day in late january.

IT blew right through -40 that night..Homes arcoss the north (Including th town where this golf course was located) were cold because at -40 propane REMAINS A LIQUID and furnace oil can gel up on you and not feed the fire.

The man in the pup tent out on the golf course with no heat other than his body and an ARTIC rated sleeping bag had the best night's sleep of anyone in that town that day.
A man can make a choice to try sleeping in freezing weather, an infant or any of these kids have no choice, that's a big difference. There are standards in this country that have developed over time and I would bet that the standards for healthy living considering all the circumstances were not met at the time. It is not a case of the Cops just applying their own standards, there is a fine line between peoples rights and protecting small children who have no one to look to other than their parents who may not be providing the best care for them.
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Old 06-17-2015, 03:44 PM   #9
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I can answer one of those questions.

How safe was the heating inside the tents....

The man in the pup tent out on the golf course with no heat other than his body and an ARTIC rated sleeping bag had the best night's sleep of anyone in that town that day.
wa8yxm:

Sadly, the OFF THE GRID NEWS did not report that any of the adults or children were equipped with arctic sleeping bags.

My original query was not about the effectiveness of the heating system but rather the safety; ie fire, electrocution, and/or carbon monoxide poisoning.
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Old 06-17-2015, 06:06 PM   #10
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NOR did they report what they had.. It was a very slanted article.

My only point is I have enjoyed a good nights sleep in Michigan, IN January, In and un-heated pup tent (Which is less than what they had)

I also slept one night in a building with no heat.. I sometimes tell the story of that night (Which has nothing to do with this thread save what is in the last paragraph)

In the middle of the night we heard what sounded like a baby crying..So I unzipped my bag, Rolled into my hyper extension back brace (Recovering from a high fall that broke two vertebra) and went to the window with a flashlight.. Hit the cat on the first try. (It was a cat)

Back to the bag, Unbuckle the brace and roll back in and zip up for the night....

Next morning the Boy Scouts who were sharing the floor with myself and their leader watched as I put the brace back on......

And recalled I was the one who got up to investigate (Kind of ashamed of themselves that the man with the disability was the one who got up).

Oh well.. I had a good night's sleep save for that interruption.
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Old 06-21-2015, 12:09 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by oakcreekeric View Post
I came across this story via FB... Pretty incredible how intrusive our government has become.. guess it's ok to have free-range chickens.. but heaven forbid you have free-range kids !!

BREAKING: Police Seize 6 Children Simply Because Family Was Camping | Off The Grid News

Be careful out there !!!

C'mon, eric!! That article couldn't even approach accurate reporting! Expecting objective camping stories from Off the Grid News is like expecting objective political reportage from Slate or MoveOn or Fox!


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Old 06-25-2015, 03:46 PM   #12
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To, me the article was pretty slanted toward the family. My B/S meter went off in the first paragraph. All of the statements came from the family, not from any investigation. I would be willing to bet they have no home or the money to buy the property.

As Mike and Cha stated, the LAST thing law enforcement wants to do is take kids away from a family. The paperwork is never ending and it could take 10-12 hours just to get someone to place them in foster care.

Lastly, law enforcement DOESN'T make the decision to remove kids, Childrens Services does.
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Old 06-25-2015, 06:14 PM   #13
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As Dutch Star said the police do not make those decisions. Child Protective Services is a just a department of a local government.
And as always, there are usually more than one side of a story.
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