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Old 05-07-2008, 07:13 AM   #43
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NeilV:
Lets face it there was a time when a company would have been giddy to boast of a net profit margin of 15% but today even a net profit of 35% dosn't seem to satisfy the greedy and they are constantly wrangling to achieve their extreme profit goal regardless of the consequences to the rest of humanity. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Neil, can you show where ANY oil company has made a 35% profit, or 15% for that matter? No. I think not because they haven't. Please don't spout the liberal kool aide and read and learn.

They have been investigated for wrongdoing/profitering eleven times by congressional democrats and there has not one shread of evidence offered OR proven. They have been looked at more closely than GWB's military record.

BTW, "Big Oil" makes less profit than Micro Soft, Martha Stewart, and you cannot make any comparison to movie 'starz'!
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Old 05-07-2008, 08:26 AM   #44
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Can you guys Say "Hedge Funds & Commodity trader". They are the ones behind most of the financial problems, starting with the housing collapse. Wake up people!
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Old 05-07-2008, 09:21 AM   #45
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Wait a minute, are you telling me that our congress has been investigating the people that fund their reelection campains. Well Golly, no wonder. Even they wouldn't bite the hand that feeds them. Did I say plot, and that includes the Dems to. Money is Money. I wonder who it is that represents us common folks these days?
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Old 05-07-2008, 09:58 AM   #46
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jestme13:
Dear Mr Gump, are you telling me that there is no such thing as a stratigic plan for any of these big boys, come on now. And it's not 70 yrs, it's only 30 the 1970's is when it started. My question was, have world prices at the gas pumps moved up at the same % this past yr as in the USA? Yes, these guys may not like each other, but they play well with each other. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is no strategic plan among or within any of the oil companies. Again since the 70's several majors have been absorbed into others and thousands have been laid off. Production and Exploration divisions differ greatly from Refinery and sales. How would you like to be a refinery manager having to pay $122/bbl for crude. Your whole premise that increased oil cost increases profits especially for the refinery side is very questionable.

And I am sorry they do not play well together. Each uses specific vendors and the rivalry of Royal Dutch and Exxon is legendary. Exxon hates Philips Conoco and won't let them operate their half of Prudhoe.

There is a lot of oil off the west coast which greens and the government wont open to exploration same with much of northern AK.

When you go to work for a major there is a special school led by corporate attorneys educating the new employee as to what your options are when associating with employees of other oil companies and company trade secrets.

Companies do not hire each others employees as in other industries. When a new corporate chief is named the first question is wether or not he is a bean counter. If he is the tech groups get their homes ready to sell if they aren't already to sell.

From my own experience, some 30 years plus, I honestly can't answer wether the high cost of oil is beneficial or not to the industry as a whole. Certain operations I think they are in trouble.

I could make a quick call to find out but typically high crude price is devastating to the refinery side.
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Old 05-07-2008, 10:04 AM   #47
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I see that many support my general thoughts here, it is gratifying.

In my own environmental business I soon found I could not have a high enough profit margin. Either half of the environmental companies I worked with went under or half of the property owners did or half of the regulators were totally out of body.

I charged accordingly and when clients demanded a payment schedule then the first payment made the job profitable. You do what you need to do and if they wanted to use my services they had to pay.
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Old 05-07-2008, 10:20 AM   #48
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Forest Grump:
From my own experience, some 30 years plus, I honestly can't answer wether the high cost of oil is beneficial or not to the industry as a whole. Certain operations I think they are in trouble. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
As recently as one (1) year ago, one of the largest major oil companies was evaluating its capital projects based on $35/bbl oil. The majors understand that inflated prices depress demand and encourage development of alternate sources of energy (example - nuclear power plants which directly sell electricity and indirectly provide the "excess" electrical power needed to produce hydrogen via electrolysis from sea water); therefore, the ones I deal with would be perfectly happy with stable $50/bbl oil prices. Unfortunately, they don't set the price of crude oil - most of the crude oil on the world market is controlled by national (i.e., government-owned) oil companies such as Saudi Aramco (Saudi Arabia), NIOC (Iran), KOC and KNPC (Kuwait), Pemex (Mexico), PdVSA (Venezuela), Pertamina (Indonesia), etc. - these companies and their governments control the supply side. Wholesale commodity prices for crude oil, natural gas, gasoline, diesel, and so forth are set by commodities traders on trading floors such as NYMEX (New York Merchantile Exchange), and the emerging economies of India and China are pulling hard on the demand side.

And, yes, refining and chemical segments of the major oil companies are squeezed between feedstock prices (oil and natural gas coming into the facility) and the prices for which they can sell their products. As I write this, refinery maintenance budgets are being cut, and capital projects are being delayed and deferred because of high feedstock prices.

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Old 05-07-2008, 10:28 AM   #49
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Forest,

'Twood seem a number of our fellow IRV2ers do not understand basic economics, basic business, basic science, basic politics, OR basic common sense. Instead it is far easier to sit back and let emotion guide their beliefs and hate rule the day.

We pay less for gas (and have done so in the past) than 90% of the countries in the world. Those that pay less are oil suppliers controlled by dictators.

Yes, the people of Kuwait and Venezuela pay $0.12/gal for gas but many cannot own a car and pay $3.00 for a loaf of bread.

There may be exceptions but I leave it to the naysayers to bring the proof.
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Old 05-07-2008, 11:08 AM   #50
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hamguy:
Forest,

Yes, the people of Kuwait and Venezuela pay $0.12/gal for gas but many cannot own a car and pay $3.00 for a loaf of bread.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have bought gas in and near Maturin Venezuela many times. I invite anyone here to return there to do so again. It's cheap folks. You can buy you know. It was scary then it is worse now. Solders with guns then, worse now.
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Old 05-07-2008, 12:05 PM   #51
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NeilV:
In 1993 I worked as a programmer writting mapping software and one of our projects was mapping continental drift and the edges of the tectonic plates back to their mating locations on the plates that they were originally joined to or part of. We knew back then that any known geological depositories could have a potentially equal or greater matching deposit at the match point on the mating plate. The major deposits of oil etc were mapped out then and this was published to the industry.

We have known where these untapped oil reserves that can be accessed via convential oil wells are located and just about how much is there for 15 years now. There is no need for any real new finds for today as the industry has been sitting on these and other existing finds for many, many years.

Exploiting these finds however could burst the bubble of the oil companies multi-billion dollar gravey train so even though they have bought and paid for this information they are just sitting on it.

If we could take out the extreme greed and the constant pursuit of obscene profit margins it would get better but for now we have to deal with those that have taken control and are in the constant pursuit of the better than X profit margin. Lets face it there was a time when a company would have been giddy to boast of a net profit margin of 15% but today even a net profit of 35% dosn't seem to satisfy the greedy and they are constantly wrangling to achieve their extreme profit goal regardless of the consequences to the rest of humanity. It boils down to loving money more than your fellow man. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow -

Now to burst your bubble. I quoted you in entirety because in entirety it is wrong and absurd.

Could and potential are the operands here. Major oil companies have huge exploration groups - locked.

So what has prevented you from buying leases and drilling or from forming a company to do so? Why is there not one super greedy maverick in the industry to split out and do so? Since the information has been "published" why has no one including yourself done so?

Want a good answer - these oil rich reservoirs do not exist.

For a petroleum reservoir to exist it must have the following: porosity - space for oil, permeability - places for oil to move, a trap of some kind to prevent further migration of petroleum, a biological and geological suitable petroleum source to produce the oil that then migrates to the trap and finally petroleum.

You diatribe refers to one component only, the trap. So you know where the traps are what is preventing you from getting leases and drilling or forming a company and doing so? Go for it.

Most traps have no petroleum. Of those that do few are of commercial value, even at $122/bbl. If there is commercial petroleum it may be low gravity and high sulfur decreasing its value and producibility or in insufficient quantities. If it is commercial it may be in another country, or in an inaccessible location for many reasons which include environmental issues, depth, location, etc. The trap may have leaked. The same geological conditions that formed the trap may destroy the trap or wells as occurred in Northridge. If there are ten traps next to each other and one is rich in petroleum chances are the other 9 have no petroleum.

Let's assume that there is a huge reservoir that exists offshore California that can be leased, in other words the government is or has offered leases in the area. The only way an oil company can preserve its interest is to lease the land in a bid process open to all, even you. So they don't lease the land and someone else does they loose it. Let's assume they do lease but do not explore or drill they loose the lease and the money spent on the lease often huge. Your theory is shot.

So let's give you a good lease in the northern Niagrin Reef of Michigan, in the 70's. You are a highly profitable independent with some 20 good producers. Your bank account is 7 figure. You are drilling a well in a new reef when you discover it is not only super high pressure but also sour, very sour. The well is within view of the major NS interstate, when it is on fire and it is on fire. The drilling rig costs $18,000/hr. Problem arises, the well blows and explodes and is out of control. The rig is lost.

You hire the best in the industry to extinguish the well but they can't. The State, Feds and the people are screaming. With the proper resources and expertise the well can be controlled but even with your vast reasources you can not. Solution ask a major to come in and do so. You work the deal and hand over title to your present leases and bank account.

Shell comes in with a highly trained army. They try to prodeuce the well at very high rates to help contain it which requires all employees to be sour gas certified and potential for destruction of the reservoir. They bring in two new huge rigs to drill into the existing out of control well bore at $18,000/hr each not including the technology required to hit the other bore. They order and lease a coil tubing rig from TX which is stopped in each state because it is overweight and over size meanwhile Shell is paying the rent which is huge. Eventually after several months the well is controlled, the fire is out and the reservoir destroyed. The well has cost Shell millions and it wasn't even theirs. The well has cost you the original independent millions, his life savings and company, for the second time.

Go for it!
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Old 05-07-2008, 06:39 PM   #52
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Forest Grump:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NeilV:
In 1993 I worked as a programmer writting mapping software and one of our projects was mapping continental drift and the edges of the tectonic plates back to their mating locations on the plates that they were originally joined to or part of. We knew back then that any known geological depositories could have a potentially equal or greater matching deposit at the match point on the mating plate. The major deposits of oil etc were mapped out then and this was published to the industry.

We have known where these untapped oil reserves that can be accessed via convential oil wells are located and just about how much is there for 15 years now. There is no need for any real new finds for today as the industry has been sitting on these and other existing finds for many, many years.

Exploiting these finds however could burst the bubble of the oil companies multi-billion dollar gravey train so even though they have bought and paid for this information they are just sitting on it.

If we could take out the extreme greed and the constant pursuit of obscene profit margins it would get better but for now we have to deal with those that have taken control and are in the constant pursuit of the better than X profit margin. Lets face it there was a time when a company would have been giddy to boast of a net profit margin of 15% but today even a net profit of 35% dosn't seem to satisfy the greedy and they are constantly wrangling to achieve their extreme profit goal regardless of the consequences to the rest of humanity. It boils down to loving money more than your fellow man. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow -

Now to burst your bubble. I quoted you in entirety because in entirety it is wrong and absurd.

Could and potential are the operands here. Major oil companies have huge exploration groups - locked.

So what has prevented you from buying leases and drilling or from forming a company to do so? Why is there not one super greedy maverick in the industry to split out and do so? Since the information has been "published" why has no one including yourself done so?

Want a good answer - these oil rich reservoirs do not exist.

For a petroleum reservoir to exist it must have the following: porosity - space for oil, permeability - places for oil to move, a trap of some kind to prevent further migration of petroleum, a biological and geological suitable petroleum source to produce the oil that then migrates to the trap and finally petroleum.

You diatribe refers to one component only, the trap. So you know where the traps are what is preventing you from getting leases and drilling or forming a company and doing so? Go for it.

Most traps have no petroleum. Of those that do few are of commercial value, even at $122/bbl. If there is commercial petroleum it may be low gravity and high sulfur decreasing its value and producibility or in insufficient quantities. If it is commercial it may be in another country, or in an inaccessible location for many reasons which include environmental issues, depth, location, etc. The trap may have leaked. The same geological conditions that formed the trap may destroy the trap or wells as occurred in Northridge. If there are ten traps next to each other and one is rich in petroleum chances are the other 9 have no petroleum.

Let's assume that there is a huge reservoir that exists offshore California that can be leased, in other words the government is or has offered leases in the area. The only way an oil company can preserve its interest is to lease the land in a bid process open to all, even you. So they don't lease the land and someone else does they loose it. Let's assume they do lease but do not explore or drill they loose the lease and the money spent on the lease often huge. Your theory is shot.

So let's give you a good lease in the northern Niagrin Reef of Michigan, in the 70's. You are a highly profitable independent with some 20 good producers. Your bank account is 7 figure. You are drilling a well in a new reef when you discover it is not only super high pressure but also sour, very sour. The well is within view of the major NS interstate, when it is on fire and it is on fire. The drilling rig costs $18,000/hr. Problem arises, the well blows and explodes and is out of control. The rig is lost.

You hire the best in the industry to extinguish the well but they can't. The State, Feds and the people are screaming. With the proper resources and expertise the well can be controlled but even with your vast reasources you can not. Solution ask a major to come in and do so. You work the deal and hand over title to your present leases and bank account.

Shell comes in with a highly trained army. They try to prodeuce the well at very high rates to help contain it which requires all employees to be sour gas certified and potential for destruction of the reservoir. They bring in two new huge rigs to drill into the existing out of control well bore at $18,000/hr each not including the technology required to hit the other bore. They order and lease a coil tubing rig from TX which is stopped in each state because it is overweight and over size meanwhile Shell is paying the rent which is huge. Eventually after several months the well is controlled, the fire is out and the reservoir destroyed. The well has cost Shell millions and it wasn't even theirs. The well has cost you the original independent millions, his life savings and company, for the second time.

Go for it! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Forest,

You did no bursting as I was part of the exploration effort from the mapping end of things and I know this information was bought and paid for by "the industry". While I know of this I am ethically prevented from using this information for personal gain or revealing the specifics as the details are the intelectual property of the clients involved. So no, I will not be investing in any venture for personal gain using this data nor have I saved any personal copies of this. That would be wrong. When this type of data is published it is only published back to the client who paid for it as it becomes his/their own private intellectual property.

My final coment should have been better segmented as this was an observation on business in general. We have all seen book keeping magic at play as far as declared profits verses the realities lately so I take the declaration of losses based only getting 90+ percent of ones expectations with a lack of sympathy.

The oil industry in general is no Snow White and even though there may be some decent folks out there that gambled the farm on striking it big and lost lets face it that was their gamble and if they rolled the dice they have to accept what comes along with it. Business in general not just oil companies have become more ruthless then ever before and people to a great too many of then just don't matter. The general problem is beyond oil.
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Old 05-07-2008, 06:59 PM   #53
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it's making me dizzy. What we have here is a failure to agree
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Old 05-08-2008, 08:18 AM   #54
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Sadly they are all full of it and wrong. LOL now dont go off on a huff on me either. I come from a state that has a lot of gas and oil drilling as well as an entire mountain of oil shale. My son in law owns a company that buys drilling rights and drills oil wells than sells them to the oil companies. Unfortunately they are drilling many wells and capping them all. They cannot sell the wells because we have no place in the US to refine it. He was ready to go out of business a year or so ago because of them when a couple of oil companies came along and started to pay him to drill and cap wells for them. At present between Utah and Colorado there are probably 50 capped wells waiting for places to refine the oil. And more are being drilled daily.
Also a company in Utah is present extracting shale oil butI have no idea where he is getting it processed. He two says he could to ten times the amount he is doing if he had a place to sell it for refining.
I also know that there is presently an oil line running from both utah and colorado to wyoming and a line from wyoming to canada for some of this oil to be refined and it is being sold back to oil companies in the US.
So when ever I hear of people talking about not having places to drill or having tons of places to drill and its not being drilled I just have to say thats a big load of bull.
And if you dont believe me go to Vernal, Utah where they are begging for people to work as oil drillers.
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Old 05-08-2008, 08:56 AM   #55
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Interesting news today. The Democrats said that the reason gas prices were so high is that oil companies are refusing to build refineries.

I find this interesting in that it is coming from the same party that refuses to allow permits for new refineries!

And we keep electing these idiots. But, I ask you, just who are the idiots?
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Old 05-08-2008, 09:37 AM   #56
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You have hit it dead on the head hamguy.
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