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Old 06-25-2012, 02:19 PM   #99
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Back to the hybrids, i do kinda like the theory. We were gonna buy an escape hybrid, but couldn't quite get it together, wife bought a liberty that gets less than half the mileage...

Modern hybrids work pretty well. The electric augments the gass motor for accelertion, letting them use a smaller gas engine if they choose to. And the active brake system and such does recapture a lot of energy. And the simple act of shutting the gas engine down at red lights saves a tremendous amount of fuel very simply.

I'd like to test drive a hybrid tahoe...

And the next breakthrough in motorhome power could very easily be a hybrid allison, with a built in electric motor and some real smart computers.
Unless something's unique about the Escape version of a Hybrid, the gas engine simply turns a generator, like a train, all of the acceleration is done via the electric motors.

The only thing unique about the hybrid design that's a little different to a train is it uses batteries instead of a large capacitor bank when it's dumping power.

A train does have batteries, but they're only traditionally used when the locomotive needs to be started. There are a few little "Look we're being green" hybrid model locomotives, mostly small, low speed switch engines, and then maybe a handful of those at best which aren't being used for the bulk of the work (GP40-2s get used for most of the switching these days, at least with the UP and BNSF yards around here locally).

Now, if you combined a small diesel motor and dumped the batteries into a hybrid, you'd have a good design that would get far more than a measly 40-50 mpg which you can get without the battery expense with a Jetta TDI.
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Old 06-25-2012, 04:03 PM   #100
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Unless something's unique about the Escape version of a Hybrid, the gas engine simply turns a generator, like a train, all of the acceleration is done via the electric motors.

The only thing unique about the hybrid design that's a little different to a train is it uses batteries instead of a large capacitor bank when it's dumping power.

A train does have batteries, but they're only traditionally used when the locomotive needs to be started. There are a few little "Look we're being green" hybrid model locomotives, mostly small, low speed switch engines, and then maybe a handful of those at best which aren't being used for the bulk of the work (GP40-2s get used for most of the switching these days, at least with the UP and BNSF yards around here locally).

Now, if you combined a small diesel motor and dumped the batteries into a hybrid, you'd have a good design that would get far more than a measly 40-50 mpg which you can get without the battery expense with a Jetta TDI.
I'm afraid you're misinformed. In fact the only hybrid auto that works that way is the Chevy Volt. All the others connect both a gas engine and the electric motor to the transmission.

There are two primary designs (not counting the Volt), Toyota connects separate gas and electric motors to the transmission which combines and transmits the torque to the wheels, and it can run on either gas or electric alone under certain conditions. The Honda (which I have) uses the flywheel (a magnet) and electric winding (field coils) in the housing to create an electric motor/generator which is part of the gas engine (it cannot run on electric alone, but if the battery failed it can run on gas alone).
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Old 06-25-2012, 05:59 PM   #101
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Great thread. I had to go do a couple lines of Ginkgo Biloba just to keep up.

You always come up with great lines and make me laugh at loud at work and then I have to dodge getting in trouble! Thanks for the laugh today!
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Old 06-25-2012, 06:51 PM   #102
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I'm afraid you're misinformed. In fact the only hybrid auto that works that way is the Chevy Volt. All the others connect both a gas engine and the electric motor to the transmission.

There are two primary designs (not counting the Volt), Toyota connects separate gas and electric motors to the transmission which combines and transmits the torque to the wheels, and it can run on either gas or electric alone under certain conditions. The Honda (which I have) uses the flywheel (a magnet) and electric winding (field coils) in the housing to create an electric motor/generator which is part of the gas engine (it cannot run on electric alone, but if the battery failed it can run on gas alone).
Ah, what a poor design.... I thought Hybrids were a little better thought out than that.... The thought, $10,000 fly swatter comes to mind (or short, over complicating a simple problem). Sounds like Chevy, at least, is trying to go down the smarter path with the Volt, though rather problematic and won't ever be in my drive way (Nothing past 2008 for GM or Chrysler will I ever buy and I don't buy imports).
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Old 06-25-2012, 07:18 PM   #103
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Ah, what a poor design.... I thought Hybrids were a little better thought out than that.... The thought, $10,000 fly swatter comes to mind (or short, over complicating a simple problem). Sounds like Chevy, at least, is trying to go down the smarter path with the Volt, though rather problematic and won't ever be in my drive way (Nothing past 2008 for GM or Chrysler will I ever buy and I don't buy imports).
I beg to differ - I think they are very, very well designed. Mine provides the smoothest operating drive train I've ever experienced in a car. The combination of a 90 hp gas and a 13 hp electric motor (a powerful enough electric-only drive-train would require bigger, heavier and more costly electric motor) provides good performance. For example, at 1500 rpm, as much as half the torque can be provided by the electric, or in other words, I get twice the low-end torque that one would expect for a gas only motor of that size.

The combination of electric motor (which produces high torque all the way down to zero rpm) with the peaked torque curve of an internal combustion engine results in a much broader, flatter torque curve It's like having a much more "ideal" engine. If someone could do that with a fuel injection improvement or something like that, you'd probably be saying "what a great engineering feat - give the designers a prize!".
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Old 06-25-2012, 08:00 PM   #104
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I beg to differ - I think they are very, very well designed. Mine provides the smoothest operating drive train I've ever experienced in a car. The combination of a 90 hp gas and a 13 hp electric motor (a powerful enough electric-only drive-train would require bigger, heavier and more costly electric motor) provides good performance. For example, at 1500 rpm, as much as half the torque can be provided by the electric, or in other words, I get twice the low-end torque that one would expect for a gas only motor of that size.

The combination of electric motor (which produces high torque all the way down to zero rpm) with the peaked torque curve of an internal combustion engine results in a much broader, flatter torque curve It's like having a much more "ideal" engine. If someone could do that with a fuel injection improvement or something like that, you'd probably be saying "what a great engineering feat - give the designers a prize!".
And yet, it's still not performing any better than a regular Turbo Diesel Car that has far better longevity and no $7000-10000 battery pack to replace if want to use the car for more than 5 years, so as I said, it's an overcomplicated solution to a simple problem.

Also, a 3-phase electric generator would solve the electric motor size problem, as you can use a fairly small and light weight motor with tremendous output power if it's fed by 3 phase electrical current.
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Old 06-25-2012, 08:04 PM   #105
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Also, a 3-phase electric generator would solve the electric motor size problem, as you can use a fairly small and light weight motor with tremendous output power if it's fed by 3 phase electrical current.
Any idea why this technology wasn't used?

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Old 06-25-2012, 08:12 PM   #106
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And yet, it's still not performing any better than a regular Turbo Diesel Car that has far better longevity and no $7000-10000 battery pack to replace if want to use the car for more than 5 years, so as I said, it's an overcomplicated solution to a simple problem.

Also, a 3-phase electric generator would solve the electric motor size problem, as you can use a fairly small and light weight motor with tremendous output power if it's fed by 3 phase electrical current.
3-phases also require AC (alternating current) input. I don't know of any AC batteries. Not to mention that you'd need to step the voltage up (more loss). Electrical engineers tend to think about these things such as oscillating the power and stepping up the voltage.

I agree with jspande - they are well designed for their uses. A 20hp electric motor isn't going to get the job done w/o gasoline assist. Most hybrids are really "electric assist". The volt (and Leaf) are different - both have large enough e-motors to reach normal speeds. The volt supplements battery drain via generator and the leaf just depends on better weight and smaller size.

If it's a "performance" issue, we can talk about the Tesla ($100k).

I own a 2011 TDI. When I *had* to buy a new car (cough, "WIFE", cough) and faced with the hybrid choice, I went diesel. I assure you, it significantly outperforms (outpowers) similar class hybrids, plus it's classed to tow a bit if you believe in such things. It's increase in efficiency is offset by what I call the diesel "tax" - that is, I pay 10% more for fuel. I also paid more than 10% more for the TDI over a gasser version.. So, just like a hybrid, it'll take a lot of miles for that to pay back. Based on the higher cost, higher efficiency, and higher fuel price, I bought it as it performs well and can tow versus a choice based on straight cost per mile.

In terms of longevity, the main advantage diesels had was lower RPMs and stout bottom ends. This was especially true of the diesels that I grew up with (220D Mercedes w/250k miles). Part of why they were so reliable and got good mileage is that they had horrible performance and parts that aren't stressed down wear to very fast - rated at 65hp, I think....

I think if you do a more modern comparison of longevity and total cost of ownership between a Honda Civic (non-hybrid) and a TDI volkswagen, I'd bet on the Civic as a winner in economics per mile (include maintenance) and longevity.
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Old 06-25-2012, 08:18 PM   #107
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3-phases also require AC (alternating current) input. I don't know of any AC batteries. Not to mention that you'd need to step the voltage up (more loss). Electrical engineers tend to think about these things such as oscillating the power and stepping up the voltage.

I agree with jspande - they are well designed for their uses. A 20hp electric motor isn't going to get the job done w/o gasoline assist. Most hybrids are really "electric assist". The volt (and Leaf) are different - both have large enough e-motors to reach normal speeds. The volt supplements battery drain via generator and the leaf just depends on better weight and smaller size.

I own a 2011 TDI. When I *had* to buy a new car (cough, "WIFE", cough) and faced with the hybrid choice, I went diesel. I assure you, it significantly outperforms (outpowers) similar class hybrids, plus it's classed to tow a bit if you believe in such things. It's increase in efficiency is offset by what I call the diesel "tax" - that is, I pay 10% more for fuel. I also paid more than 10% more for the TDI over a gasser version.. So, just like a hybrid, it'll take a lot of miles for that to pay back. Based on the higher cost, higher efficiency, and higher fuel price, I bought it as it performs well and can tow versus a choice based on economics.

In terms of longevity, the main advantage diesels had was lower RPMs and stout bottom ends. I think if you compare longevity and total cost of ownership between a Honda Civic (non-hybrid) and a TDI volkswagen, I'd bet on the Civic as a winner in economics and longevity.
The question of longevity comes more at the 400,000+ mile mark, which any good diesel should cruise past without a care. In my family, we run cars till they will go no more.

Our old family 1994 Ford Escort wagon with the 1.9L 4 cylinder and the 5 speed stick got 40 mpg freeway and finally died at 530,204 miles (Well died for a short time, till my brother dropped a new head on it for $600, and got it running again and is still using it to commute after my father retired it from a commuter car he'd used from the time he bought it in 1994).

Now, if you've got pocket cash or just an urge to stay in debt, and upgraded every 5 years, the cost savings of a long-lasting vehicle is moot, as you're free to pony up for a new vehicle every time the warranty runs out .
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Old 06-26-2012, 11:26 AM   #108
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And yet, it's still not performing any better than a regular Turbo Diesel Car that has far better longevity and no $7000-10000 battery pack to replace if want to use the car for more than 5 years, so as I said, it's an overcomplicated solution to a simple problem.

Also, a 3-phase electric generator would solve the electric motor size problem, as you can use a fairly small and light weight motor with tremendous output power if it's fed by 3 phase electrical current.
Sorry to keep correcting you, but someone's been giving you a lot of false ideas about Hybrids. First, most Hybrid's batteries cost nowhere near $7000 (my Honda Civic Hybrid is somewhere between $1000 and $2000 I believe). There are two types of Hybrids, "plug-in" hybrids like the Volt have a large, expensive battery allowing them it to go 35 miles or so at highway speeds on electric alone. The vast majority on the road today have a much, much smaller, less expensive battery which is charged by regenerative braking and is used to assist acceleration.

In both cases the batteries have a 150,000 mile, 8 year warranty which means replacing one in 5 years costs exactly $0 (unless you've got over 150 k miles in which case your fuel savings have paid for the battery and a lot more).

And isn't a turbocharger also an added complication - why object to an electric motor but not that? But your TDI is a great choice for highway fuel mileage, but what about the city driving/commuting which is the whole purpose of Hybrids. I get about the same economy in city driving as on the highway (42.7 mpg over the total 95 k miles for a 4-door Civic sedan). TDI? I rather doubt it. The best choice comes down to the type of driving you do.
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Old 06-26-2012, 11:35 AM   #109
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Shouldn't you be thanking us taxpayers who subsidized your purchase by $7,500 (attempting to be raised to $10,000).
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Old 06-26-2012, 11:52 AM   #110
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In the 80's I drove a 1967 mercury Parklane with a 410ci v8. I got 16mpg. A land yacht
I then drove a 1987 Toyota corolla that got 44mpg. Great car.
When the Prius came out, I wondered what the excitement was about. To me, hybrids need to get 60mpg (or at least 50+mpg) before I'm interested.

Now, the new diesel Jetta gets something like 50mpg. Why buy hybrid? Not for me at the premium price they sell for.

I don't recycle per se, but I do fix and repair my stuff instead of disposing and buying new. For example, my stihl chainsaw is over 20 years old. I just replaced the cord on my makita handdrill - it's over 20 yrs old as well. I don't get credit as a recycler but I figure I saved landfill space this way.
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Old 06-26-2012, 12:02 PM   #111
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Shouldn't you be thanking us taxpayers who subsidized your purchase by $7,500 (attempting to be raised to $10,000).
Are you seriously suggesting that I bought a $21,000 Civic Hybrid in 2003 and received a $7500 subsidy?????????

You might be interested in buying an share of the Brooklyn Bridge - how about some land in Florida?
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Old 06-26-2012, 12:25 PM   #112
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As defined by the 2009 ACES Act, a PEV is a vehicle which draws propulsion energy from a traction battery with at least 4 kwh of capacity and uses an offboard source of energy to recharge such battery.[60] The tax credit for new plug-in electric vehicles is worth $2,500 plus $417 for each kilowatt-hour of battery capacity over 4 kwh, and the portion of the credit determined by battery capacity cannot exceed $5,000. Therefore, the total amount of the credit allowed for a new PEV is $7,500.[60]
The new qualified plug-in electric vehicle credit phases out for a PEV manufacturer over the one-year period beginning with the second calendar quarter after the calendar quarter in which at least 200,000 qualifying vehicles from that manufacturer have been sold for use in the United States. For this purpose cumulative sales are accounted after December 31, 2009. Qualifying PEVs are eligible for 50% of the credit if acquired in the first two quarters of the phase-out period, and 25% of the credit if bought in the third or fourth quarter of the phase-out period.[60] Both the Nissan Leaf electric vehicle and the Chevrolet Volt plug-in hybrid, launched in December 2010, are eligible for the maximum $7,500 tax credit.[62] The Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrid, scheduled for 2012, is eligible for a $2,500 tax credit due to its smaller battery capacity of 5.2 kWh.[63]
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