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Old 06-26-2012, 12:32 PM   #113
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...oh, by the way... I thought of another good reason to buy a hybrid. If you have a kid going off to college and want to help him be able to make ends meet. A hybrid would be a great car to send him off in. You pay up front for his fuel savings down the line.
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Old 06-26-2012, 02:18 PM   #114
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The question of longevity comes more at the 400,000+ mile mark, which any good diesel should cruise past without a care. In my family, we run cars till they will go no more.

Our old family 1994 Ford Escort wagon with the 1.9L 4 cylinder and the 5 speed stick got 40 mpg freeway and finally died at 530,204 miles (Well died for a short time, till my brother dropped a new head on it for $600, and got it running again and is still using it to commute after my father retired it from a commuter car he'd used from the time he bought it in 1994).
Don't knock me too much. I have a 1988 4runner with well over 200k (stopped counting at this point). And I'm with you, I'll drive them till they drop, other than the occasional pre-depreciated purchase of a used sports car every few years that I put a few thousand on and then resell.

I'm not sure you'll see modern TDI diesels cruise past 400k miles. They've kinda tamed the diesel. It puts down a lot more power, operates at much higher rpms, and I'd *guess* won't last as long as it's no longer churning along under 2000 rpm producing crazy torque and low power. I suppose that's the price we pay for not having it drive like a 1970s diesel.

Your point is well made, however.. One of the biggest holes in our wallet is a propensity to turn over and buy a new car every 3 years or less.
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Old 06-26-2012, 02:19 PM   #115
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...oh, by the way... I thought of another good reason to buy a hybrid. If you have a kid going off to college and want to help him be able to make ends meet. A hybrid would be a great car to send him off in. You pay up front for his fuel savings down the line.
This I'd challenge. I'd suggest taking additional cost of a new hybrid, putting it as a deposit on his/her education and provide a used Civic, Accord, or Toyota that is a few years old. Bang for the buck will be better.. :-)
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Old 06-26-2012, 02:21 PM   #116
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This I'd challenge. I'd suggest taking additional cost of a new hybrid, putting it as a deposit on his/her education and provide a used Civic, Accord, or Toyota that is a few years old. Bang for the buck will be better.. :-)

Meh... You're probably right. I'm really trying hard to find good reasons to buy a hybrid. Work with me here.
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Old 06-26-2012, 02:26 PM   #117
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Don't knock me too much. I have a 1988 4runner with well over 200k (stopped counting at this point). And I'm with you, I'll drive them till they drop, other than the occasional pre-depreciated purchase of a used sports car every few years that I put a few thousand on and then resell.

I'm not sure you'll see modern TDI diesels cruise past 400k miles. They've kinda tamed the diesel. It puts down a lot more power, operates at much higher rpms, and I'd *guess* won't last as long as it's no longer churning along under 2000 rpm producing crazy torque and low power. I suppose that's the price we pay for not having it drive like a 1970s diesel.

Your point is well made, however.. One of the biggest holes in our wallet is a propensity to turn over and buy a new car every 3 years or less.
Most of my dealings are with early 90s turbo diesels, Cummins older 89-93 12v, and the 7.3L Powerstroke (Ford's last good Diesel), which were pre-smog and pre-over powering insanity that has gripped alot of newer diesels.

The Cummins, in particular, should be able to go a million miles before really needing heavy work if taken care of properly and driven responsibly (Something alot of Americans don't do anymore).

You could get 25 mpg empty out of a full-size 1-ton truck with the 1st gen, and around 12 mpg hauling (If ya kept yer foot out of it).
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Old 06-26-2012, 03:41 PM   #118
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Meh... You're probably right. I'm really trying hard to find good reasons to buy a hybrid. Work with me here.
I'll help:
1) Tax advantages (YMMV - your mileage may vary depending on situation)
2) Encourage the technological innovation that will spur more cost effective future generations of vehicles.
3) If you've got a son/daughter who won't do well with cash in the bank, the hybrid approach may make more sense...
4) You'd rather give your money to car manufacturers over oil companies.

Again, I bought a TDI. It's probably more cost effective to buy the non-TDI... At least for the first 100k miles or so. I'm not saying that I make the perfect financial choice.
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Old 06-26-2012, 05:40 PM   #119
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I'll offer up plan C, kid gets a job and works and buys their own first car, and borrows for school and learns really fast not to take junk classes and degrees (Like History, or English Literature) as they have to pay it all back on their own, which means they'll need to pick a career that will be able to fast track into a real world job in that industry.

This in the end saves your money and hopefully helps them to learn personal and fiscal responsibility, when no hand outs or bailouts are offered.

Then, you can buy a hybrid or a second for yourself .
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Old 06-26-2012, 06:10 PM   #120
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I'll offer up plan C, kid gets a job and works and buys their own first car, and borrows for school and learns really fast not to take junk classes and degrees (Like History, or English Literature) as they have to pay it all back on their own, which means they'll need to pick a career that will be able to fast track into a real world job in that industry.

This in the end saves your money and hopefully helps them to learn personal and fiscal responsibility, when no hand outs or bailouts are offered.

Then, you can buy a hybrid or a second for yourself .
Just what we need - more voters who don't know History. ("Those who don't know their history are bound to repeat it")
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Old 06-26-2012, 06:37 PM   #121
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Plan D (Our already-paid-for plan for the two grandkids' college)

Organize funding for college early so there won't be any debt on graduation, and send 'em to a college where they can use public transport or WALK anyplace they need to go. A car's just another burden for a college kid.

They're going to graduate in good shape physically AND financially....
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Old 06-26-2012, 07:16 PM   #122
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Just what we need - more voters who don't know History. ("Those who don't know their history are bound to repeat it")
That was a bit poorly worded on my part, History, English Lit, were references to Degrees, not classes. History and English lit make fine elective classes to fill the elective requirements while working on a useful degree, like Electrical Engineering (Creating microprocessors), Nursing, Surgeon, etc... etc....
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Old 06-26-2012, 07:39 PM   #123
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Actual Hybrid numbers for Ford (at least)

I have actual Hybrid numbers for Ford Hybrids (at least) having a '06 Ford Escape Hybrid and a '10 Fusion Hybrid, with friends/family that have the same cars with regular gas powerplants

The one thing no one seems to realize is that Ford has engineered the Hybrid to provide V6 power - so putting the MPG of the 4cyl vs. the Hybrid are bogus. So I submit this measure.

Escape V6 = 20 EPA combined...
-Aunt gets 19MPG
Escape Hybrid = 29 EPA combined...
-I get 30MPG

Fusion V6 = 20 EPA combined...
-Friend gets 19MPG
Fusion Hybrid = 39 EPA combined...
-I get 39MPG

This is an actual savings of 36% for the Escape and 51% for the Fusion!!!!

And, given the typical annual mileage - (like, say KBB gives 18K miles per year), thats an annual savings of:
347 gallons of gas for the Escape.
486 gallons for the Fusion.

You can do your own math for $$ savings (gas prices are regional), but my Hybrids were only only about $3,500 over the same model car w/ V6...They pay for themselves in about 2 years (not counting any tax credit for buying a Hybrid).

I'm no tree hugger and would not buy a Prius, but my wallet says Ford is doing a good job with this one.
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Old 06-26-2012, 07:45 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarab0088 View Post
I have actual Hybrid numbers for Ford Hybrids (at least) having a '06 Ford Escape Hybrid and a '10 Fusion Hybrid, with friends/family that have the same cars with regular gas powerplants

The one thing no one seems to realize is that Ford has engineered the Hybrid to provide V6 power - so putting the MPG of the 4cyl vs. the Hybrid are bogus. So I submit this measure.

Escape V6 = 20 EPA combined...
-Aunt gets 19MPG
Escape Hybrid = 29 EPA combined...
-I get 30MPG

Fusion V6 = 20 EPA combined...
-Friend gets 19MPG
Fusion Hybrid = 39 EPA combined...
-I get 39MPG

This is an actual savings of 36% for the Escape and 51% for the Fusion!!!!

And, given the typical annual mileage - (like, say KBB gives 18K miles per year), thats an annual savings of:
347 gallons of gas for the Escape.
486 gallons for the Fusion.

You can do your own math for $$ savings (gas prices are regional), but my Hybrids were only only about $3,500 over the same model car w/ V6...They pay for themselves in about 2 years (not counting any tax credit for buying a Hybrid).

I'm no tree hugger and would not buy a Prius, but my wallet says Ford is doing a good job with this one.
Ah, but what does the Prius use for it's power plant? Is it a V6, if not, then using a 4 cylinder for a mileage comparison is quite alright.

Since most of the regular commuter cars that given decent mileage tend to be 4 cylinders that are non-hybrid, we can use them for comparison just as much.

It'd also be a fair comparison to do a price by price match with the Tax Credits or any other government funded rebates removed from the hybrids price to get really how much it costs (Which I'd personally like to see ended, if you want to buy a Hybrid, great, good on ya! Pay the whole cost yourself rather than having the rest of us subsidize your purchase ).

If you want V6 numbers, my 1997 Ford Taurus with the stock Vulcan V6 consistently gets between 28-30 mpg freeway and 22mpg in city if I'm foolish enough to drive slow routes.
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Old 06-26-2012, 08:49 PM   #125
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Ah, but what does the Prius use for it's power plant? Is it a V6, if not, then using a 4 cylinder for a mileage comparison is quite alright.

Since most of the regular commuter cars that given decent mileage tend to be 4 cylinders that are non-hybrid, we can use them for comparison just as much.

It'd also be a fair comparison to do a price by price match with the Tax Credits or any other government funded rebates removed from the hybrids price to get really how much it costs (Which I'd personally like to see ended, if you want to buy a Hybrid, great, good on ya! Pay the whole cost yourself rather than having the rest of us subsidize your purchase ).

If you want V6 numbers, my 1997 Ford Taurus with the stock Vulcan V6 consistently gets between 28-30 mpg freeway and 22mpg in city if I'm foolish enough to drive slow routes.
IMHO, an Escape or Fusion with the I-4 would be underpowered dawgs for freeway driving anywhere, so that's not a good argument. I don't have room in my life for a dedicated commute car - and I thnk that's not unusual. I believe Ford understands the American buyer and these cars hit the mark.

Also like other commuter cars, the Prius is a compact car - comparing an SUV or midsized car like the Fusion to it is just unfair and mean to the little clown car

I won't argue about Gov't handouts meant to direct personal property purchases, that's why I did not mention it in my post (however, the Fed's and the People's Republic of California did give me an undisclosed perk for the hybrid purchases around April 15th). And, I agree that there's too much Gov't handout going on everywhere, but this is a "Tree Hugger Rant" so it's on-topic

My last word on the Prius - courtesy of Jay Leno:
“You got a speeding ticket in a Prius—what’s funnier than that?”
-and-
"We Americans want everyone to know about the good work we’re doing anonymously."

Read more: Jay Leno: Why American Cars Are Poised For A Comeback - Popular Mechanics
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Old 06-26-2012, 09:38 PM   #126
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And, given the typical annual mileage - (like, say KBB gives 18K miles per year), thats an annual savings of:
347 gallons of gas for the Escape.
486 gallons for the Fusion.
The number that KBB is using is a bit skewed. For years the Hertz number was the standard for calculating the annual mileage of the average driver. In recent years that has seen a decrease. I'm not sure where it's at now but it has never been more than 15,000. The Federal Highway Administration has it broken down by Average Annual Miles per Driver by Age Group. According to FHWA the only group achieving 18,000 miles/year are males aged 20-54. The actual average of all drivers in all age groups is only 13,476 per/year. Using the more accurate number in your calculations will decrease your perceived savings significantly.
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