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Old 03-16-2007, 07:59 AM   #43
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Since my name came up again I just had to take a few minutes from my beach time in Mexico for a response. A lot of things have happened since the Blinds closed thread. Many of the things we discussed have come to pass. Our current Attorney General is about to loose his job over voter fraud. It's hard to imagine how anyone could think we have any chance of winning a civil religious war in Iraq that's been going on for a thousand years, yet we have to stay the course behind our stubborn President.

It's obvious the Republicans know how to use conservative extremists. Most of you don't bother to vote unless there is something you feel strongly about like denying equal rights to gays or women. They've learned they can get you excited enough to vote. After the election you hear little or nothing about the issue you were so excited about. Immigration is one of those issues. They use you, and then give you nothing in return. In the end the only people who have benefited from Republican policies are those who have contributed millions to their campaigns. They get huge non-competitive government contracts with no performance standards. Don't like that answer come up with your own, the end result is the same.

As much as I dislike Bush I do have to agree with him on this issue. Our problem is that we really don't have a way for people who wish to do manual labor to enter the country legally. My daughter has a friend who is 25 years old. She was born in Tijuana, but she was raised in the US by US citizens since she was 6 months old. It's taken 5 years and $10,000 for her to become a citizen. Our immigration policy is non-functional.

Immigration got the entire country excited last year. There was so much BS floating around out there that everyone thought this was the biggest issue facing the country. That's the problem with referencing statistics from sources with an agenda.

Then legitimate news sources started to investigate. The fact is immigrants do pay taxes. The reality is that they pay more taxes than they would have to pay if they were citizens as they could file a return and get a refund like most Americans. Crime rates and many other issues cited by activists turned out not to be true. There is really no point in referencing any web sites as there are many on both sides and you'll only believe the ones you agree with.

That's when most of the country woke up and realized what our politicians knew all along. Americans don't dig ditches. We also realized that this army of welfare people who won't work for $20 an hour are not going to miraculously appear and work as hard as Mexicans even if we pay them $30 and hour. The businesses that benefit most and can not stay in business with out immigrant labor like agri business and construction are also big contributors to the Republican party. That's the reason there has been no action on immigration other than spending a lot of money to make it look like they are doing something.

The battle is going to be even more difficult as many people started to wonder who would mow their laws, plant their trees, and construct their homes if there were no more Mexican labors. The down side is that Mexicans bring a little of their culture with them and that is what really scares us. What should really scare you is that illegal immigrants are involved in our entire food supply. They pick our fruits and vegetables, and they process all of our food! Everything you eat has passed though an illegal immigrants hands at one point or another.

We truly need cheap labor or our economy will collapse. It's time to stop the name calling and hate. We do need a comprehensive immigration policy in our country that really works.

Michael
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Old 03-16-2007, 01:48 PM   #44
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Michael, you bring up some interesting points about cheap labor and I have to agree, a little.

I don't think anyone in the previous 4 pages mentioned any political party that was to blame for the illegal immigration problem. But, I am a Republican and know many who aren't and they, like you, can only bash the current administration so it doesn't matter.

What many of us are trying to say is illegal immigrants are just that here in the United States without proper authorization. They are here illegally. Our government officals, at every level, are not enforcing laws that were enacted to protect the citizens of the United States. Whether immigration rules and laws need to be changed is a matter of debate. But the fact is illegal is illegal. And when our government officals give out aid and benefits to people who are not, by law, eligable for this, it burdens our budgets and requires more taxes.

Illegal immigrants are not paying taxes! You can not pay taxes without a Social Security Number. You can not get a Social Security Number if you are not a citizen of this Country. So I don't understand your claim that they are paying taxes. Oh, wait......

I did hear several instances where Joe Blow U.S. citizen was accused by the IRS of not reporting income earned at their other job out of State. Most recent one was here locally when a man from PA was notified by the IRS that he did not report his income from OR. The man has never been to OR but an illegal immigrant was using his name and SSN in Tillamook, OR at a job. The Mexican was arrested, found to have several ID's, but at least he was paying taxes.

I see illegal aliens every day. I know some of the people that hire them. I know how they are paid and what the State of Oregon provides for them. I also know that the dairy farmers who hire them would be hard pressed to find an American to do the same work. But, there again it's eaiser to live off the State, it has no expectations of you.


Paul
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Old 03-16-2007, 07:23 PM   #45
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Michael,

I don't recall any name calling, and I didn't say if I was Republican or Democrat. I could be a J.F.K. Democrat, which is far from what Ted K. is.

The web site that was posted first is a guide to immigrating to Mexico. Facts not fiction.

Michael, I'm sure you and I would get along on a beach just fine, we just couldn't talk politics. Just like my neighbor who works for Barbara Boxer

Living here in California in the agricultural center of the US, illegal immigrants get out of paying fed and state taxes by claiming 10 or more dependants.

I just don't get it, our polititians need to look up the word "illegal" in the dictionary.

Hey Paul, I worked on a dairy farm! . Thank you and all members of our military for your service.
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Old 03-16-2007, 08:04 PM   #46
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My friends and I worked on dairy farms when we were kids but you just don't see that anymore. But, that's another peeve that I'll leave alone.

Paul
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Old 03-16-2007, 11:37 PM   #47
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Here in the San Jaoquin Valley when I drive down 99 and get that whiff of a dairy farm, it still smells like money .
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Old 03-17-2007, 10:01 AM   #48
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Garbageman, that a cool name.

You are correct when you say they don't pay taxes becasue they don't have social security numbers. However, in order to get job on a construction site or farm they do need to have an ID and a social security card. Apparently these ID cards are easily obtained for a few dollars, and these ID's have passed right through the border. If the Border Patrol can't tell which are phony you can't expect employers or landloards to know if they are real ID's. The employeer subtracts social security, fed and state tax from their paychecks. So they really don't pay taxes, but the taxes are taken from their paychecks. So it's your call, if you want to say they don't pay taxes you are technically correct, but maybe not correct in reality.

They do however; pay sales tax on everything the purchase or at least most things. They also indirectly or directly pay property taxes indirectly as landlords add that expense into their rent. There are many illegals who own homes.

However, there are situations where no federal payroll taxes are paid.

What do you do when you have some 24 inch box trees to plant and 10 tons or rock to put on your yard? This is something I've encountered several times last year. There are only two real options. You can do it yourself or you can pick up some Mexican day labors. I don't know about you but I'm not as strong as I once was and doing heavy manual labor have a severe impact on my body. I hired a couple of Mexicans who will work without stopping until it's done. Who is responsible for paying taxes on those wages? How many of you pay the taxes on those wages in a similar situation?

Here is another common situation. Let's say you have a job to do. A contractor says he'll do it for $3,000 but if you pay cash he'll discount and take $2,600.00. How many of you will pay with cash? I'm sure we all know the reason for paying in cash. It's to avoid taxes.

While we are pointing the finger at the illegal because they don't pay taxes we should also be pointing the finger at ourselves and our neighbors. I guess that means we should makes some serious changes in our tax system.

I have no idea what the problem is with immigration. Our government just can't get the job done. We all want all these people to be here legally. However, there is no way for the people to do that.

Estimates of the number of illegal immigrants living in the US range from 7 million to 20 million or more. I think I read once that it would cost about $220 Billion dollars to sent them all home. Is it really worth that? Many of these people have lived here for over 20 years. Isn't it a touch inhumane to deport someone who has been here for 20 years illegally, owns a house here, and whose children and grandchildren are citizens? What kind of people are we? We need to fix the system, and not penalize the people who supply us with virtually all of food and housing.

You are correct this really isn't a Republican / Democrat issue. However, the real push to make lettuce pickers felons and send them back to Mexico is strictly a Republican issue. Bush's position is similar to the Democrats. Now that the Democrats have more power I guess we'll have to see if they actually do something about this important issue. As for name calling I didn't mean that to point at anyone here. That was just a generic comment as our country as conservative and liberal throw jabs at each other.

These people are hungry and despirate. There is nothing that will stop them from coming here. What we need to do is to manage and control the problem.


It's beach time and this has gone on way too long! Enjoy your Saturday.

Michael

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Old 03-17-2007, 11:42 AM   #49
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Michael enjoy the beach.

I'm glad we agree that there is an immigration problem and that something has to be done.

I agree that sending 20ml people out of our Country is a bit unrealistic.

Maybe this is more the fault of Mexico for not supporting the less fortunate of their Country. And now they won't let them back in? Why is that? I feel bad for these people but with those fleeing to the North are also the criminals and diseased, mostly typhoid.

It is a real problem and something has to get fixed.

Paul
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