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Old 09-25-2012, 11:45 AM   #295
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I live near Griffin. Yes, it was a mill town and when WalMart came, the mill workers could afford to buy more things from them. People also bought cheaper clothing, towels, bedding, etc from WalMart. WalMart didn't purchase these things from the local mills; they imported them from China. Now there are no mills left in Griffin (plus a lot of other places). The mill workers might have been able to buy more goods in the beginning, but when their jobs were given to the Chinese, so were the paychecks. In the end, the mill workers lost out while WalMart grows bigger and bigger. Just a little food for thought.
2X... I can't believe 80% of Americans can't see this. You don't get something for nothing so all we have done is trade our future and our kids future for cheap products. America will never be the same and it happened on our watch....
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Old 09-25-2012, 11:56 AM   #296
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If Walmart is killing America it may also be killing foreign countries. The list below lists the Walmart 982 foreign locations. They list only 1478 locations in the US. (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...ts/where.html) Unfortunately this listing is from 2004 and both numbers would be I suspect much larger.
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Old 09-25-2012, 12:18 PM   #297
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Believe me, I'm not just blaming the unions, the American manufacturers let the engineers design a lousy car. The American manufacturers let the the workmanship be shoddy. They were making money, gave the workers what they wanted, no matter what, so they could keep those assembly lines rolling and keep raking in the cash. The union leaders of course knew this and squeezed every dime they could in the way of wages, benefits, work rules, and anything else they wanted.

All I can say is , thank goodness that the Japanese did what they did, because it is the only reason we have well built American cars today. Competition is the best thing there is for the consumer. It brings up quality, and lowers prices on many things.

Some American manufacturers are already bringing back some of the manufacturing from China. The cost of construction, shipping, and the robotic mentality of the workers make it very difficult for small to mid size companies get anything done. On a really grand scale, it pays to manufacture in China, but things are changing.
Again, the American manufactures didn't just "let" the quality suffer. How would one compete against starvation wages, manipulated currancy values, subsidized production and still pay a decent living, return a profitt and drive the quality, engineering and design forward? Just how would you have done that?

Hopefully you will be able to move to China or build a big enough wall around your home so you will not have to look at the suffering in this country.
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Old 09-25-2012, 09:16 PM   #298
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Walmart is a symbolism. What happened to pride, quality and craftsmanship? We have traded it for cheap, shody and disposable: fueled by entitlement and/or greed.
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Old 09-25-2012, 09:25 PM   #299
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jmrkav - It pains me to drive by the old Van Nuys GM plant and see the Living Spaces there now selling China Junk. So many people worked there, including my brother-in-law, and now nothing.

The plastic bathtubs on 4 wheels that the Japanese have foisted on us. Are they better than the US cars of old? I think not. Let's see how many Hyundai's will still be running 50 years from now. Can you find any chrome or metal parts on a Camry?
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Old 09-25-2012, 09:47 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by jmrkav

Again, the American manufactures didn't just "let" the quality suffer. How would one compete against starvation wages, manipulated currancy values, subsidized production and still pay a decent living, return a profitt and drive the quality, engineering and design forward? Just how would you have done that?

Hopefully you will be able to move to China or build a big enough wall around your home so you will not have to look at the suffering in this country.
Really??? Where were you in the 70s? I worked for a Ford dealer, cars had to be pushed off the trucks because they wouldn't start. This was not just dead batteries, this was intake manifolds with blocked castings. Dashboards with tool bits inside of them, door panels with pop cans and garbage inside them. Paint jobs had cinders underneath the paint, stuff under the carpeting, the list goes on and on. Meanwhile the workers are hanging around our dealership, and across the street at a restaurant , WHILE they are on the clock. 8 guys take off, one stays back to punch them out.

The union did what they wanted, and the company let them as long as they were selling cars and raking in the cash. I was there witnessing this, and we had not yet lost any market share to Japan. In the 1980's the consumer discovered they didn't have to take a Japanese car back to the dealership a million times. The cars started, and ran great for 150-200k.

This had nothing to do with anyone but us, the US getting fat and lazy.
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Old 09-25-2012, 09:51 PM   #301
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This had nothing to do with anyone but us, the US getting fat and lazy.
Entitlement.
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Old 09-26-2012, 06:42 AM   #302
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Really??? Where were you in the 70s? I worked for a Ford dealer, cars had to be pushed off the trucks because they wouldn't start. This was not just dead batteries, this was intake manifolds with blocked castings. Dashboards with tool bits inside of them, door panels with pop cans and garbage inside them. Paint jobs had cinders underneath the paint, stuff under the carpeting, the list goes on and on. Meanwhile the workers are hanging around our dealership, and across the street at a restaurant , WHILE they are on the clock. 8 guys take off, one stays back to punch them out.



This had nothing to do with anyone but us, the US getting fat and lazy.
Finally the truth is said,the fat cats running the union get rich cause the followers are like a lot of our citizens today,following the Pide Pipper ! HA!
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:08 AM   #303
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Really??? Where were you in the 70s? I worked for a Ford dealer, cars had to be pushed off the trucks because they wouldn't start. This was not just dead batteries, this was intake manifolds with blocked castings. Dashboards with tool bits inside of them, door panels with pop cans and garbage inside them. Paint jobs had cinders underneath the paint, stuff under the carpeting, the list goes on and on. Meanwhile the workers are hanging around our dealership, and across the street at a restaurant , WHILE they are on the clock. 8 guys take off, one stays back to punch them out.

The union did what they wanted, and the company let them as long as they were selling cars and raking in the cash. I was there witnessing this, and we had not yet lost any market share to Japan. In the 1980's the consumer discovered they didn't have to take a Japanese car back to the dealership a million times. The cars started, and ran great for 150-200k.

This had nothing to do with anyone but us, the US getting fat and lazy.
(moderator edit)
Although, in any organization, there are some that don't care, most of us just want a fair days pay for a fair days work. We do the best we can with the time and tools provided. We take pride in what we do. Many of us are into cars and spend our weekends at car shows, pampering ours. I raced for many years. We hate the few slackers as much as anyone.

We did not run the company, engineer or design the cars.

Try installing the entire A/C unit in less than a minute. Brake rotors at two per minute and that's not all you do. It doesn't leave a lot of time left to hang out anywhere. A water fountain can be 20 feet away but might as well be a mile when you have a minute to do your job and you are working at 98% per minute. You raise your hand to go to the bathroom and pray to God no one is already gone.

I for one am sick and tired of the constant bashing of the American worker and unions. My cousin has a rod in his back from loading panels into the back of a Chevy when a welding hose broke. Another cousin has both rotor cuos destroyed from grinding roofs 10 hours a day for thirty years. I've seen a man slipping in his own blood from a cut while he trys to keep up on the line. Walking off gets you fired. An elecrtician killed while running in to get a line up and running. We are doing Jobs you wouldn't or couldn't do. We would hire a 100 people at a time and 25 would quit before first break. Another 25 would not come in the next day for those "great paying. easy jobs".
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Old 09-26-2012, 01:11 PM   #304
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One more thing before I go and enjoy my day. (moderator edit)
Do you think that the workers at the plants push those cars up on the trucks? I worked some in the truck and rail car loading. I'd like to see that. Although it is possible that something could go wrong after loading, It's rare.

Also all cars and trucks are roll tested. This is a dynometer type test that checks every aspect of the cars performance. No car could be shipped without this. A car that could not start due to a casting would not leave the plant and for sure would not be loaded on a truck by hand. And yes I was there in the 70s. Remember, we were all hanging out at the corner
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Old 09-26-2012, 01:55 PM   #305
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2X... I can't believe 80% of Americans can't see this. You don't get something for nothing so all we have done is trade our future and our kids future for cheap products. America will never be the same and it happened on our watch....
I can't believe people can't see they have gotten complacent in ways to be competitive and won't take responsibility for the loss of work and the loss of productivity.Walmart is responding to a demand.A demand that all of your guys wanted.

Yeah sure.................it's the other guy
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Old 09-26-2012, 02:19 PM   #306
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Just to set the record straight, the estate tax exemption is 5 million not 1 million. A pretty tidy sum I think. So the tax on the 5 million inheritance is 0. A pretty low rate don't you think?
Until 1/1/2013 then back to $1,ooo,ooo. Why estate tax? The company has already paid it's income taxes and the owners have paid every year. Why does the death of the owner entitle the government to claim a chunk of the business? Redistribution is the only answer I can come up with.
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Old 09-26-2012, 08:10 PM   #307
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Until 1/1/2013 then back to $1,ooo,ooo. Why estate tax? The company has already paid it's income taxes and the owners have paid every year. Why does the death of the owner entitle the government to claim a chunk of the business? Redistribution is the only answer I can come up with.
Or it could be that too much wealth became concentrated in too few families. The last century provided many examples of that. There are ways to avoid estate taxes and the wealthy know them all.
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:16 PM   #308
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One more thing before I go and enjoy my day. (moderator edit)
Do you think that the workers at the plants push those cars up on the trucks? I worked some in the truck and rail car loading. I'd like to see that. Although it is possible that something could go wrong after loading, It's rare.

Also all cars and trucks are roll tested. This is a dynometer type test that checks every aspect of the cars performance. No car could be shipped without this. A car that could not start due to a casting would not leave the plant and for sure would not be loaded on a truck by hand. And yes I was there in the 70s. Remember, we were all hanging out at the corner
(moderator edit)
I worked at a Ford Dealer and yes you can drive a car up on the truck, and have it not start once it gets to the destination. I myself wondered how in the heck did they get those cars up on the truck. I WITNESSED it. I saw the intake manifold that was casted right down the street. The Ford plant in Cleveland. One of the ports was almost completely blocked. (moderator edit) I saw day after day these free-loading jerks, bragging about how they took turns leaving early and having one guy punch six or eight of them out. I was the one that had to explain why my customers new car was so full of defects. Do you know how embarrassing it is to have a customer pull soda cans from the inside of his door?

Part of my pay was getting a reduced monthly payment on what was called a demonstrator. I had 2 new cars a year, and I even found a note inside a door panel when I was trying to get the rattle out of the door. The not was not very nice, and I'm glad a customer never found it. they did not test every aspect of a cars performance in the seventies, they pulled random cars for testing. You should have seen the difference when a ford employee ordered a car and it was tagged with his or her name. The car came out almost perfect. We started ordering them with employees name tagged on them and getting them re-invoiced so our customers who special ordered would get a good built car.

The work rules you are talking about did not go into place until the 80s and 90s. You should have heard all the guys who had jobs bitching.

I will say, the job on an auto assembly line is tedious and back-breaking. Repetitive motion injuries are common. The conditions working in the Cleveland foundry were terrible. Air quality was very poor.

I have many friends to this day that worked in the Ford plants. Cleveland had 6 of them, and I made these friends by selling them cars. Some were honest- hardworking employees, and some just took advantage of the system. I'm sure you were one of the employees who worked hard and took pride in your work, but I am also sure you knew of employees who did some of the thins I spoke of.

One thing that did happen, in the great recession of the early 80s they thinned the ranks, and many of the trouble makers did not get their jobs back in the 90s or got offered jobs that they did not want to take. Maybe the Cleveland plants were the only ones that had these type of employees.

Again, the automakers allowed this behavior. Poorly engineered vehicles,(remember piston slap?not found on Japanese cars, but common on Ford 4 cylinders) bloated workforces, corrupt union officials. Oh yes I almost forgot about the union president trying to get some free work done on his car and free other things for his buddies. Refusal meant that your dealership got "blacklisted" secretly meaning that employees were advised NOT TO BUY their cars at the dealerships that did not play ball with union officials. I was only a salesman for the first three years of my career, and spent the other 17 years in management, and was witness to these shenanigans.
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