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Old 05-19-2016, 07:53 AM   #71
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Mike & Cha, Very well stated and you hit the nail again!!!

All of today's adults were students. That should be obvious. They are taught (or not) what is needed to succeed in life by the examples of family, friends, Teachers, society and Church. All the necessary character traits are taught by the groups every kid is involved with. Most of the positive influences are either missing, terribly lacking or completely misguided.

With the advent of social media and the inter net at the finger tips of our youth with almost NO CONTROLS, RESTRICTIONS, OR GUIDELINES it will ruin any attempt at the proper positive raising of today's youth.

If Teachers can't fail students when they won't do the work what happens? When an earned grade is changed what does that teach. When the phrase, "Dead-line" is just a date that can be changed what is taught??

We used to hear the sentence, "If I got into trouble at school I knew I was in REAL trouble at home." That almost does not happen. It's the Teachers fault. It's never the kids fault anymore. There was a time when the Teacher's word meant something but not anymore. We've seen it all to often in the inner cities. Teachers being beat up and nothing happens. Or the student might be expelled. Well guess what that's what they want anyway. Just how really stupid is that????

When it comes to teachers here's the worst example. In the City of NY there are 600 to 800 teachers who show up every day in a building and do absolutely nothing as far as teaching. It's just a building where they can be so they can collect a pay check. Who are they??? The Cities WORST teachers. Nobody wants them but the Teachers UNION won't allow them to be fired. So they collect a very nice salary and do absolutely nothing. This has been going on for years and years. Another example of no consequences attached to bad behavior.

Don't believe me?? Rent the movie, "Waiting for Superman,"

Then there's the Chicago Teachers UNION. Highest paid teachers in the country and the lowest test scores. Go figure!!! Bad results andthey still get paid.

When there are no consequences attached to bad or uncivilized behavior chaos and anarchy reign supreme. That is what we are witnessing today. Nobody wants to take the time to hold anybody accountable for their behavior. The police are wrong, the government is wrong, the Teachers are wrong. All authority figures are now questioned. Yes some of that is necessary so those in authority don't misuse their power but we all know it's gone way to far.

One word describes what is needed to succeed, "Discipline." Discipline to" follow all the rules, do what's right when most others don't, treat all with respect, get the job done and on time, control ones desires to do wrong in all aspects of behavior and to put aside selfishness to serve others.

TeJay
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Old 05-19-2016, 09:19 AM   #72
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I can not say how much I have enjoyed reading this thread this morning.
The only opinion that I can offer is that a national class should be implemented,required by all students,1st grade and up.....

" COMMON SENSE 101"

As for constant lying.... just remember,If their lips are moving.....
The constant battle to determine if someone is lying, is tiring.
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Old 05-19-2016, 11:21 AM   #73
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As I read through this thread I can't help but think, if teachers change grades to make parents happy isn't that teaching the students dishonesty? It seems a little like "the end justifies the means" to me, which IMHO is a flawed way of reasoning and can only lead to other problems.

I still prefer humming "Oh Lord it's Hard to be Humble". :-))

Just my 2c.

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Old 05-19-2016, 11:46 AM   #74
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rapid rick,

Since my retirement from teaching I have given the idea of Teaching Common Sense some thought. Most will say that it can't be taught. I believe differently.

This is my first attempt at writing this so don't know how it will turn out.

What is Common Sense?? I believe it is the ability to apply what one has learned to understand new or different situations. Or the ability to apply past experiences when solving problems in a new or different situation. We often hear people say, "Well common sense tells me that we need to do this." How do people arrive at that point?

It is a decision making process when solving problems based on past experiences. We gather and analyze past experiences and apply it to a new and maybe slightly different experience. How simple is that??

When the educational experiences our kids go through deals mainly with specific answers and not on problem solving we close the door to creative thinking. When only the correct answer is the evaluation tool and not the process of how they arrived at the answer it curtails problem solving skill building.

Look at how grades are used. Why do kids get grades?? Careful how you answer. We've known for years that good test scores does not make a good problem solver or a good employee. The only thing it measures is the kids ability to take tests.

ACT and PSAT testing is the biggest scam perpetuated onto the educational system. It is a billion dollar industry and high scores do not assure college success. If two individuals have similar resumes what might cause one to be hired over the other?? The one with the most outside activities in clubs, civic organizations etc. WHY?? Chances are they will have better people skills.

My SIL works for a computer company and is involved in hiring. A good 95% of the applicants can't think outside the box.

Here's something I'd do to teach CS. Place some sort of a puzzle in the center of a group of 25 kids. The puzzle would rotate slowly so all could see all sides. First I'd ask them to give me a description of what they see and write it down. Then I ask them to list 5 ways or steps of how they would solve the puzzle.

Then I'd break them up into groups of 2-3 and have them repeat the previous step to determine if they came up with different steps. Sometimes just sharing ideas sparks other ideas.

During all this time they are not touching the object or moving about the room. They are just involved in a thought process and then a discussion and sharing process.

We don't know what the solution is if there is one. I don't even know what the puzzle is because I haven't thought about it long enough. And neither the puzzle nor the solution are important. Imagine the thinking skills that would occur. Imagine the interaction after you allowed them to share. They don't know what they are searching for. They don't know what the solution is because a problem has not been defined but they are thinking. They are analyzing. They are processing thought and ideas.

How would you grade them?? I'd give them all A's. WHY?? Because I'm asking them to think. There is no wrong or right answer so if they participate and try they get a good grade.

REAL WORLD SITUATION
Now lets put a EFI (Electronic Fuel Injection) fuel rail with 6 injectors a CPU, a TPS (Throttle Position Sensor), and a MAP sensor and do the same thing. You have most of the parts used on today's EFI engines. I can think of a dozen things I'd ask the kids.

The teacher is the guider of the learning. The kids are the participants in that learning process. They have books and the net to search for answers. There are no wrong answers just answers. Imagine how much they'd learn. Imagine the discussion and interaction. Then ask them how they'd make it better.

That's how I fixed stupid.

TeJay
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Old 05-19-2016, 11:52 AM   #75
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dix39,

Ah you kind of got that a bit mixed up. It's not the Teachers changing the grades to keep the parents happy but the ADMINISTRATORS changing the grades (without the Teachers permission) to keep the parents happy.

This is particularly nasty in districts where voting on school millage's by the parents can really effect the money available for Education. We experienced that in MI.

TeJay
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Old 05-19-2016, 12:13 PM   #76
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Common Sense/Stupidity 101

Just experienced the lack of one and the full load of the other.. guess which is which..

On our way home Sunday.. we decided to stop at a Steak-n-Shake.. As we were waiting for our shakes.. an elderly couple was at the register to pay.. he asked about a SR and/or a Military discount.. the person said she they don't have either.. then the MGR came over and said the same.. the older gentleman politely said.. "well, I've gotten one here before"... to which, the MGR said "there's nothing I can do, we don't offer anything like that"...

This was a heart wrenching situation.. here we have a member of our greatest generation, likely on SS, and asking for help... there were 4 of us watching this unfold and we couldn't grab our wallets soon enough.. my GF grabbed a $20 and gave it to the couple and thanked him for his service.. he was beyond appreciative.. it was a neat moment to be a part of... He went on to pay the bill, which was only $17.. he handed her back $3 change.. and thanked us again..

So.. after we got back to the RV we started to talk... to me, common sense would dictate, as a MGR, I would have "comp'd" a soda/drink and called it good.. but that MGR couldn't step outside the box to come up with a solution.. there in lies the problem...
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Old 05-19-2016, 12:27 PM   #77
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How would you grade them?? I'd give them all A's. WHY?? Because I'm asking them to think. There is no wrong or right answer so if they participate and try they get a good grade.

TeJay
I fully understand your example and answer.

I would say that there isn't enough of telling people their answer is wrong.

There was an article title "The Death of Shame" with the the premise that 'Shame' is taught by a society. When there is no 'shame' in a society it means that the society has stopped teaching the values and other aspects that makes it a society.

Also, 'shame' in getting something wrong can give a person pause to reflect on what they are going to say before they say it.

It was a very good article 'The Death of Shame' published in Vogue or Happer's - I can't remember the mag. now.
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Old 05-19-2016, 04:53 PM   #78
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I am 61 also and have had a career in a place with many dishonest people. If I meet someone I am always wary at first unless they earn my trust and respect. A lot of people today are only out for the almighty dollar and know nothing about honesty and integrity.
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Old 05-19-2016, 05:33 PM   #79
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Tejay,

I agree that common sense can be taught,but must also be taught from birth, as a 2 year old touches a hot stove,it is also up to his parents to teach him/her to NOT TOUCH as the consequences will be burnt hands or fingers. At that point that child has the "common sense " to not try it again.There are some children that will or will not learn from touching that hot burner,only to repeat the injury over and over again, these children,without parental guidance, will be dumped into the laps of teachers,who are expected to teach what should have been taught at home at a younger age. These teachers are left to try to bring these kids "up to date" in the common sense department,which is a very big chore.
Technology has also played a large part in the lack of common sense,because of course, there is no app for that, that I know of,anyway. Everyone walks around with their heads down,looking at their smart phones,as if the world revolves around THEM. Granted,there is a lot of good associated with the internet,but to live ones life around the internet,is breeding people to rely on the internet for common sense. Just not a good place to find it,IMHO.

I think this subject of common sense as to weather your born with or without it,is bull, kind of like mechanical ability, are you born with it? They say some are,some are not,still a teachable ability, just a matter of weather your a person that prefers this ability over, lets say being a writer. So, I guess the question of the day is, who,exactly is to blame for the lack of common sense, the lack of integrity, the lack of accountability, and the lack of basic human decency amongst the masses?
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Old 05-19-2016, 06:09 PM   #80
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If I meet someone I am always wary at first unless they earn my trust and respect. A lot of people today are only out for the almighty dollar and know nothing about honesty and integrity.
I could not have said it better.
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Old 05-19-2016, 07:18 PM   #81
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Stupidity is like death; you don't know it but others around you do.
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Old 05-19-2016, 08:30 PM   #82
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Losing patience with stupidity, dishonesty

Common sense includes the ability to understand and foresee outcomes. Not just coming up with a solution, but anticipating the possible outcomes. Cause and effect(s). Looking ahead one move, two moves, three moves in a chess game is a perfect example.

The Darwin Award is earned by someone whose contribution to the gene pool is removing themselves from it. If you are not familiar, Google it. The one that comes to mind is the individual who was killed by the rock and materials that were being supported by the scaffolding he was stealing.
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Old 05-19-2016, 08:47 PM   #83
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All this stupid stuff has been around forever. These days IMHO it's amplified because of the entitlement society with a healthy dose of selfishness.

Just last week we sat through a HS semi-final soccer match for AR state finals. This is being hosted where I taught HS Auto Shop for 25 years.

There were 6-8 girls in front of us for 95% of the game. They didn't know anything that was going on in regards to the game. The entire time they were either on their phones, giggling over pics and video's, yes of boys, eating, eating and more eating. They were up and down constantly with no regard for anybody behind them trying to watch the game. This went on until they decided to just leave.

Yes they were kids but with no controls from any adults but also no self controls or manners of any sorts. That's a lack of parenting. As they go through life they want for absolutely nothing. All their wants and needs are answered with no skin in the game. If you have no skin in the game no responsibilities for anything, behavior, manners, etc are not part of it either.

When they head out on the roads that will carry over. When they head to their first job, which is supposed to be the training ground for future jobs, it will carry over. Since they had to work for very little they will appreciate nothing given to them. Since again they have nothing in the game it will reflect in their lack of quality in their driving, and in their future job.

Yes and many of us mat/will call it stupid. Perhaps not the best term to explain something that was taught to them by today's society.

I just learned recently that where i taught HS things have changed. Just a few years ago when a Teacher placed a grade in their grade book it was considered etched in stone. Yes it could be changed but only by the Teacher and there had to be a good reason. In my 35 years I was very careful but NEVER once did I change a final grade at anybodies request. What ever grade they earned it was what they earned.

In defense of that position I was very, very careful how I graded students. If they got a D or less it was usually based on their lack of trying and not on their lack of intelligence. I had many, many, many (remember the shop as a dumping ground) special ED students. If they tried they passed. Most of those students could learn a skill but only up to a point. They could go out and get a job just changing brakes or maybe mufflers. Probably never get a job diagnosing today's vehicles. They were working.

Today the administration CAN and DOES change teachers grades. WHY??? Because the administration does not want parents to be unhappy. We are teaching kids that anything and everything is handed to them. They don't have to work for anything even grades. At some point somebody is going to give them a job and they may not even have to work at that one either.

Most students enter College or the work force with few skills and even less knowledge about how to problem solve or how to work for something. Daily I presented problems to my students that often times I didn't even know the answers yet. That's a learning environment. My job was to provide places for them to solve those problems. I guided learners through a maze of issues with them searching. I was never just looking for final answers. It was a process of trial and error. If you never fail you never learn but you have to be given an opportunity to try, fail and eventually solve and learn.

The academic teachers generally are only interested in results when in fact it should be the process. When a teacher of 30 years comes to my shop and says, "Do you have a Torque wrench?" "I've been teaching Torque concepts for 30 years in Physics and I have never even seen a torque wrench."

That my friends IMHO says it ALL. If you can't even show how torque concepts are used in the real world how do you expect kids to learn and apply??

TeJay
Excellent write up.
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Old 05-19-2016, 08:47 PM   #84
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Of course common sense can be taught, because everyone who has it learned it. No one is born with it.

I believe we need be very careful when considering having common sense be taught in school. Each year the quality of basic educational skills degrade, kids read less effectively each year, and each decade. Math skills are also not improving but diminishing. Less high school seniors know who Napoleon was than any time since he went to high school.

We can debate why they cannot teach reading, writing and arithmetic, maybe it is a problem with the teachers, the administrators, the society or whatever. The reason is not the point of this posting, the fact that the quality of this education is eroding is my point.

Now we want them to teach Common Sense?!?

Most every kid I ever heard of has parents. That is kind of how it works. Not all parents are good at it, not all are even present in their kids lives, but that does not mean they do not exist. (One of my pet peeves {another thread} is when we hear so much about 'single parents'. There are no such things. Only kids where both parents are not present)

Common sense must be taught, and can only be taught by family or at home. Schools cannot do it.

Case in point: My son was in middle school 5 years ago. In 6th grade, he was told how to get a Google account so he can establish an email account. He was told (he told me he got the data from the teacher who later denied it) that he was too young to meet the google standards (setting up the account requires you input your birth date). His teacher explained how to erase the cookies in case you forgot to lie about your birthday.

I complained and brought it to the Principal and other school officials. They said that they did not mean any problem with it. I told them it was wrong, so they made a special email account for my son thru the school servers, which had pretty strict safeguards in it. (Damage was done, but at least the point was expressed)

By the time he was in 8th grade, there were all kinds of meetings and seminars for both parents and students, because it was found that many of the students were doing inappropriate things with these uncontrolled accounts, and some of the literature from the school actually stated that the kids were too immature to properly manage their accounts. (that the school had taught them to create by showing them how to go around the google age restrictions)

I had more meetings with the same principal telling her that I told them all 2 years earlier that this would happen. She stated that there was no way to predict this. She also said it was the parent's responsibility to monitor the kids email accounts. She took no ownership of the lack of common sense of the whole situation.

And some here want these people to teach my kids common sense?

This thread was originally about stupid people and not wanting to tolerate it as much anymore. I maintain that every time you see something stupid or someone acting stupidly, and do not react and speak up, you are passively endorsing it. Speaking up will not be well received, but needs to be done anyway. You will be shoveling sand against the tide, but should do it anyway.

If enough people do it, you can make a break water that will protect your bay, your small piece of the world. The tide will go on, but you need not acquiesce to getting wet. At a minimum, get wet while shoveling, not while laying down face down on the sand...
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