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Old 05-29-2007, 07:00 AM   #29
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hamguy:
Hey Vette, if you think health care is expensive now, wait until it is 'free'! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I didn't say it was expensive, I'd just settle for being able to get some if I retired early.
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Old 05-29-2007, 10:55 AM   #30
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Hi Tom, I had to retire at 62. I have a ruined back, cancer (in remission) and congestive heart failure. Not complaining, mind you, we have a great life.

Anyway, I HAD to have insurance to get through to Medicare. The cheapest I could find was BCBS at a cost of $2,000/month.

I just bit the bullet and paid it for 3 years. I would rather have spent that $36,000 on traveling in my RV.

Dean
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Old 05-29-2007, 11:39 AM   #31
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Thats kind of what I mean. To me that is not accessable, at 2k a month that makes it 24k a year and unless you have a whole bunch of money you just can't afford that. So, I guess I'll just have to continue to work as long as they'll have me or I reach 65. And just for the record I think Okla is not too bad on taxes compared to other states. They all get their money, one way or another.
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Old 05-29-2007, 11:51 AM   #32
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Wow. My math was waaaay off. I paid 36 months at $2,000= $72,000. Now I am sick, HIHI
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Old 05-29-2007, 01:40 PM   #33
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I really get a kick out of you guys sometimes. We have the most expensive health care system in the world and yet it's not even close to the best. That doesn't include the cost of providing medical care for those who have nothing. So we pay a lot and get very little in return. The only people who don't like the Canadian medical care are conservatives in the US! The Canadians seem to be quite happy with it. Then there is the French, remember them? They were the ones who so stupid. They didn't follow us into Iraq. Their medical system is excellent. We could learn a lot from other countries in the world if we just didn't know it all already. How could health care in this country possible be more expensive?

What amazes me is that I'm guessing that the income level of most people on this board is probably somewhere between $50,000 and $200,000. Yet the majority somehow feel that the wealthy those making say $500,000 to $10 million are somehow over taxed. The way our system has to works is that those who make more pay more. Obviously there are many people in this country who can't afford a roof over their head let alone pay taxes and medical care.

Soo when you cut the amount that wealthy pay in taxes guess who picks up the tab, the Middle Class which probably includes everyone on this board. That is unless you take the Bush approach and finance the debt long term so that our kids can pay for it.

Sometimes you have to be careful about what you ask for.

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Old 05-29-2007, 07:48 PM   #34
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Quote:
"Then there is the French, remember them? They were the ones who so stupid. They didn't follow us into Iraq. Their medical system is excellent."

That is a real comparison. We need to be like the French.

To do this, we will need to lower every aspect of our standard of living.

We need to be paying about $8.00 per gallon of gas, which about $5.50 is tax.

For the average person, like me, to own and operate an RV would be impossible.

We need to have a 35 hour work week to lower unemployment, which is over 25%.

We need for everyone employed to pay about 70% of their income in taxes.

We need to have unions so strong that you can't afford to work on your own home. You have to get a contractor to install anything worn out or broken on your house, because the tax charged for a private homeowner for home improvement materials is more expensive than hiring a contractor to do the work.

These are only a few examples.

Yea, we need to be like that.....NOT!
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Old 05-29-2007, 10:30 PM   #35
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I wonder how many people stop to think why our health care is so expensive. I have, and I will list what I came up with. Most problems are caused by the very politicians advocating universal healthcare.

My list is not in any particular order.

1. We all think we MUST have the best health care available regardless of cost. This is completely
illogical! Are we all able to drive the best and most expensive cars available, or live in the
most expensive house available? No. Why should not our health care be adequate, but not
necessarily the best?

2. Trial Lawyers. Who pays all the class action suits against drug companies, or the
mal-practice suits against doctors? We do, in the form of higher bills and insurance.

3. Organ Transplants. A typical organ transplant is 50 to 100 thousand dollars, or more. Anti-rejection
drugs are 20 to 50 thousand dollars per year per patient. Who pays for that? Where does that
money come from? It's certainly not free!

4. Expensive diagnostic equipment required for more accurate treatment. We have the best in the world, but
it is not cheap.

5. High demand caused by Medicare and Medicade.

6. Illegal Aliens treated and not paying, urban shooting victims treated and not paying, etc.

We can't have all this without paying for it. I don't pretend to have the answer, but I know TAXPAYER FUNDED healthcare is NOT the answer. The government never does anything efficiently, and this would be a disaster. Waste and fraud would go up exponencially and we will end up paying much more in extra taxes than we do now in insurance, plus all doctors, nurses, and hospital workers would be government employees.
Do we really want that?
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Old 05-30-2007, 05:25 AM   #36
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I never said we should do everything the French do. I just used the French because I know how much you love them! At least they were smart enough to come up with a very effective medical system for all of it's people. It just maybe the best in the world.

I'm 59 years old, and I'm in excellent physical condition. My cholesterol is 180. I'm in the gym 5 days a week. The only drug I take is Mexican Prilosec for my Hiatal Hernia. I tried to change insurance companies a few months ago as it would have been a little less expensive. I was turned down! I have no idea why but it illustrates the problem. At least I have the money to purchase health insurance and I have health insurance, millions of people in this country don't.

There is no excuse for people living in the wealthiest country in the world to go without health care and that is reality in the US.

That's a fascinating list that you came up with but I noticed right off that you missed drug companies? Remember those are the guys who contributed millions to elect Bush and many of our congressmen. Care to explain why you can buy the same drug in Mexico or Canada for as little at 10% of what we pay here?

One other interesting point, does it every make you wonder why we are so sick? We pile drugs upon drugs to solve horrible problems like Restless Leg Syndrome! What about our food supply? It's full of additives so that "we won't just eat one!" Then there are all those government agencies that are set up to protect us. Yet they are run by the companies that manufacture all of the drugs we pay so dearly for and the food that we can't stop eating!

How do you know that a federally funded medical program that would cover everyone in the US won't work? How could it possibly be any worse?

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Old 05-30-2007, 05:37 AM   #37
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While recognizing that many Canadians believe that we have one of the best health care systems in the world, the founders of Timely Medical Alternatives Inc. also recognize that there are some 875,000 Canadians currently on the waiting list for referrals to specialists or for medical procedures.

Our organization was formed in 2003 to help Canadians from coast to coast, to "Leave the queue" and take personal responsibility for their own private medical services.. Since then we have helped hundreds of Canadians obtain second medical opinions, MRI's / CT scans / PET scans (within days) and surgery (within weeks). We have helped our clients to regain their mobility, to get relief from chronic pain, to get diagnoses of illnesses and we have, in some cases, helped to save the lives of a number of our fellow Canadians.
http://www.timelymedical.ca/

Universal Health Coverage --- Call It Socialized Medicine
Lawrence R. Huntoon, MD, PhD

One of the biggest myths being propogated today is the absurd notion that "people can't see a doctor without having insurance." The truth is office visits are relatively cheap, well within the means of most people. The problem is most people don't budget anything for their annual medical care. And, then when a problem arises, any expense greater than zero "isn't in the budget."

The other problem is that insurance really isn't insurance anymore. It is pre-paid health care. True insurance is intended to prevent financial disaster in the face of an unlikely event. Most people, however, have come to expect first dollar coverage for everything including very common and likely events like routine doctor office visits. "Covered'' employees don't realize it's their money going to pay for this "wonderful" non-bargain of first dollar coverage. It's not a "free" benefit provided by their employer as most employees believe. These costs are essentially hidden from employees. Money their employer wastes in purchasing first dollar coverage or inferior managed care coverage for the employee is money which would have been the employee's salary to spend as they choose.

The reason most people obtain their health insurance from their employer is because of tax discrimination. During World War II, our government enacted wage and price controls. Employers couldn't attract better workers by offering higher wages, but were allowed to offer health insurance as an untaxed benefit. Although World War II ended 54 years ago, this same tax discrimination policy remains in effect today. This atrocious policy discriminates against the working poor, part-time employees, employees working for small businesses that don't offer health insurance, and the self-employed. Those who obtain their health insurance through their employer, purchase their coverage with pre-tax dollars. On the other hand, those who purchase their health insurance on their own, purchase it with after-tax dollars --- a huge difference. In fact, the uninsured actually end up paying what amounts to a tax penalty for being uninsured.(1) It is estimated that "a family in the bottom fifth of the income distribution pays about $450 more in taxes than insured families at the same income level. For families in the top fifth of the income distribution, the tax penalty is $1,780."(1) The analysis goes on to say that "on the average, uninsured families pay about $1,018 more in federal taxes each year because they do not have employer-provided insurance. Collectively, the uninsured pay about $17.1 billion in extra taxes each year because they do not receive the same tax break as insured people with similar income. If state and local taxes are included, the extra taxes paid by the uninsured exceed $19 billion per year."(1)

Where, we must ask, is the compassion for these overtaxed, hard-working people? This is clearly a government-created problem. What we don't need is more government (nationalized health care) to "fix it." What we need is to get government out of our wallets so people can have their own money needed to purchase and own their own health insurance. The other thing the pro-socialist "crisis mongers" fail to tell people is that only one-third of the uninsured are chronically uninsured.2 For the other two-thirds, it is only a short, temporary condition, "half of all uninsured spells will last less than six-months. Three-fourths of them will be insured within 12 months. Only 18 percent of all last for more than two years
."(2)

Those who brandish the "crisis" of the uninsured to promote socialized medicine also often fail to tell people that uninsured doesn't necessarily mean poor. In fact, the National Center for Policy Analysis (NCPA) tells us that "a third of the uninsured households earn more than $30,000 a year and 10 percent earn more than $50,000."(2) That's at least 40 percent of the so-called "uninsured" that could well afford a $45 office visit or health insurance.(2) We need to get away from the concept that "someone else," big government or insurance, needs to take care of our every need.

The other adverse consequence of this tax discrimination is that it led to cost inflation of medical care. Everyone came to believe that we were spending "other peoples' money" (OPM). And, when you're spending OPM, the sky is the limit. Patients have been told that they are getting "free" insurance from their employer and quite naturally came to expect everything they wanted or desired, whether of marginal benefit or not, would be "fully covered." Likewise, the physician who "participated" in insurance and was paid directly by the insurance company for everything with OPM, had no disincentive to hold down costs. The patients came to view these "participating" physicians as "good" and "compassionate" because the physicians would accept their insurance and the patient would have to pay little or nothing out of pocket, not realizing that OPM was actually their money all along.

Both patient and participating physician, therefore, contributed to this disrupted market where both buyer and seller were insulated from costs thus leading to uncontrollable cost inflation. The problem of cost inflation was further compounded by the cost of government regulation. Government mandates increase the costs of health insurance tremendously, and the mandates are often for things that most people don't want or need. Yet, they are forced to pay for the "coverage." "These mandated benefits included wigs for bald-headed women (Minnesota), pastoral marital counseling (Vermont), and community sperm bank services (Massachusetts).(3) In New York state, most health insurance premiums doubled as a result of state-mandated community rating. This has made health insurance especially hard to afford for the young and healthy who are, in effect, punished by the state for being young and healthy and for not engaging in unhealthy behavior. State mandates, which were purportedly instituted to "help" people, have thus had the effect of pricing many people out of the health insurance market. This, however, is predictably what happens when we look to big government to "help" us.

Indeed, "universal coverage," nationalized health care, or socialized medicine, regardless of what you choose to call it, is not the same as medical care. All of the citizens of Canada, for instance, have "universal coverage." What they often don't have, however, is the medical care that they need when they need it. That is why we see Canadians crossing the border into the United States in droves to obtain the health care that they can't get when they need it in their own country.

Their government rations access to health care and thus attempts to control costs by making MRI scans, radiation oncology, bypass surgeries and many other health services largely unavailable to their own people. Is this the egalitarian's view of compassion and social justice?

We Get More of What the Government Subsidizes
Government programs also breed highly destructive dependence. How destructive?

Well, I once took care of an alcoholic patient who bragged that his government disability checks allowed him to purchase better quality whiskey than he could afford to buy when he wasn't considered disabled because of his alcoholism. The government thus subsidized his alcoholism.

During his hospital stay, I pointed out his government subsidized habit had damaged his liver, his pancreas and his brain. He was slowly but surely killing himself with alcohol, bought and paid for by the government. After much discussion with the patient, I convinced him to give up alcohol, but there was a problem. Although the patient was willing to give up alcohol, he wasn't willing to give up the government checks. You see, if he gave up alcohol, he would lose his disability status, and would have to do something drastic like work to obtain money. But, he reasoned, why work when the government will give him the money to spend doing something that he liked to do? This spontaneous "experiment" in addiction medicine proved one thing beyond a shadow of a doubt. As powerful as addiction to alcohol is, it pales in comparison to the addiction to government money.

Yes, we need health care reform, but it needs to be based upon the principles of individual freedom and individual responsibility. And, there are many options out there. Most people could purchase a high deductible indemnity insurance policy at a lower price than they would pay for monthly managed care premiums. That's right --- a much higher quality of health care at a lower price! Imagine, having the freedom to choose the doctor or hospital you want to go to, being able to go to specialists without denials, delays, and gatekeepers. And, the money saved by purchasing a high-deductible catastrophic policy could be set aside in a special savings account to pay for deductibles. The money saved by purchasing a high-deductible policy could also be used to pay for the insurance premiums.

Medical Savings Accounts (MSAs) allow people to put money aside and take a tax deduction for keeping and controlling their own money. The MSA earns interest year after year tax free and if not spent by retirement age can be converted into a pension fund. Think of all the money you and your employer have turned over to insurance companies since you started working, and how much a young worker would have accumulated after 45 years of investment in a MSA.

Those in favor of nationalized health care, of course, don't want to give you control of your own money. Government elites feel that they can better spend your money for you. This is the real message that they don't want you to hear.
And, last but not least, there is charity. No hospital ever turns any patient away because of lack of funds. Hospitals and the physicians on call at those hospitals are required by law to treat all patients presenting to the emergency department irrespective of ability to pay. And we do it all the time. It's a total myth that you can't come to the hospital because you "don't have insurance" or "can't pay."

Charity is something that should involve churches, not big government. What big government does, confiscating money from all, including the minimum wage earner, and redistributing it based upon some social engineering scheme, isn't charity. It's legalized plunder.

True charity comes from the heart, not from forced "contributions."

Most churches and charitable agencies understand the dependency trap of big government programs. They understand that it does no good in the long run to give a man fish for his dinner. This does not help him. To help a man, you must teach him to fish. The goal should be to help a man back to his feet so he can support himself and his family, not to trap them in a cycle of dependency. That is what dignity and self-esteem are all about.

That is what true compassion is all about.

The Amish don't have "insurance coverage," yet they have existed for centuries via a charitable tradition of voluntarily sharing others' burdens and medical expenses. This same concept has been implemented via other churches and religious organizations in conjunction with MSAs and has been proven by AAPS members like Dr. Alieta Eck and associates to be a much more affordable alternative to traditional health insurance.

I find it very sad in a country where men and women have died fighting to preserve our freedom and have died fighting off socialism and communism that some are now considering socialized medicine as a solution to improving access to health care.

Lenin once said that "medicine is the keystone in the arch of socialism,'' and I believe those who are promoting "universal coverage" via government-run and government-controlled medicine know this. What they hope is that the public won't find out the truth.

There is nothing compassionate about socialism.

This is why the AAPS gives a high priority to educating other physicians and the public about the truth of socialized medicine. That is why AAPS should be joined and supported by all physicians!


References
1. Are the uninsured freeloaders? National Center for Policy Analysis, Brief Analysis No. 120, August 10, 1994.
2. Goodman JC, Musgrave G. Patient Power. Excerpted from: Problem: The rising number of people who lack health insurance. National Center for Policy Analysis, 1992.
3. Printz D. We need MSAs now! Medical Sentinel 1996;1(2):5.
Lawrence R. Huntoon, MD, PhD is president of AAPS and a practicing neurologist in Jamestown, New York.
Originally published in the Medical Sentinel 2000;5(4):134-136. Copyright 2000 Association of American Physicians and Surgeons.
http://haciendapub.com/article49.html

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vegascpl:
I never said we should do everything the French do. I just used the French because I know how much you love them! At least they were smart enough to come up with a very effective medical system for all of it's people. It just maybe the best in the world.

I'm 59 years old, and I'm in excellent physical condition. My cholesterol is 180. I'm in the gym 5 days a week. The only drug I take is Mexican Prilosec for my Hiatal Hernia. I tried to change insurance companies a few months ago as it would have been a little less expensive. I was turned down! I have no idea why but it illustrates the problem. At least I have the money to purchase health insurance and I have health insurance, millions of people in this country don't.

There is no excuse for people living in the wealthiest country in the world to go without health care and that is reality in the US.

That's a fascinating list that you came up with but I noticed right off that you missed drug companies? Remember those are the guys who contributed millions to elect Bush and many of our congressmen. Care to explain why you can buy the same drug in Mexico or Canada for as little at 10% of what we pay here?

One other interesting point, does it every make you wonder why we are so sick? We pile drugs upon drugs to solve horrible problems like Restless Leg Syndrome! What about our food supply? It's full of additives so that "we won't just eat one!" Then there are all those government agencies that are set up to protect us. Yet they are run by the companies that manufacture all of the drugs we pay so dearly for and the food that we can't stop eating!

How do you know that a federally funded medical program that would cover everyone in the US won't work? How could it possibly be any worse?

Michael

2005 Dutch Star 40' 4 slide
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2006 Ford Escape Hybrid </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
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Old 05-30-2007, 06:02 AM   #38
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"The only people who don't like the Canadian medical care are conservatives in the US! The Canadians seem to be quite happy with it. "

I beg to differ. I was in the Maritime Provences last September. This was during the campaigning time for their, what I took to be Legislative, elections. One radio station was interviewing candidates in various locations.

One of his questions to each was, "What is the biggest complaint you hear from your constituents?"

The answer in EVERY case (about 10 different candidate interviews) was, The Canadian Medical Care SYSTEM. 100% said that was the biggest problem. I have many Canadian friends and without exception, they hate it.

Mesa, AZ is winter home to thousands of Canadians. Our hospitals are full of them. Its bad enought I can't get into emergency services due to the dozens of illegal Hispanics in the waiting rooms, but in the winter, the Canadians add to the mix. At least they pay!

You are welcome you your own opinions, but not your ownn facts!

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Old 05-30-2007, 09:59 AM   #39
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In France, I understand that if you are over 60, you can't get an organ transplant, and you are treated much different than a younger person.

I may get flamed big time for my next question, but why do the same people who think the rich should pay more taxes not want to pay some on their won prescription drugs and healthcare? I don't understand.

Medical insurance is the same as any insurance. There are deductibles, depending on your policy.

Most doctors will tell you that drugs are over prescribed, especially to seniors. My opinion is we should always have to pay a fee to go to the doctor and for prescription drugs, except under chronic and catastrophic conditions, unless we can afford to pay the insurance premiums that will do it for us. If not, people will take care of themselves less and go to the doctor more often than necessary. Medical costs will get out of hand as they are now.

Personally, I would rather take responsibility for my own health care, obtain my own insurance through work, a group policy, or on my own, and not have the government do it for me. And when I reach 65 (if I live that long) I expect to have to purchase a huge medicare supplement.

Always remember, someone pays for your doctor's visit and the drugs you take. If not you, who?
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Old 05-30-2007, 10:11 AM   #40
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">How do you know that a federally funded medical program that would cover everyone in the US won't work? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

All you need to do is compare the average standard of living in ANY country that has socialized medicine to ours. They are inferior to us in every way, including health care.

Quote: How could it possibly be any worse?

You can't be serious!
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Old 05-30-2007, 02:02 PM   #41
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Can someone point me to an all encompassing program of the Feds that works efficiently or even at a 50% level of efficiency. (Other than its Constitutionally mandated control of the Military).

Did you know that 73 cents of every tax dollar is wasted by bureaucracy? SEVENTY-THREE PERCENT WASTE.

Heck, the feds even had to give up on the postal service and it still is a bureaucratic nightmare.
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Old 05-30-2007, 02:45 PM   #42
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hamguy:
Can someone point me to an all encompassing program of the Feds that works efficiently. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Congress issuing itself pay raises, health care, and retirement income.
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