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Old 08-24-2007, 11:50 AM   #15
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What you are trying to do is tie the WOT to a country. The terrorists have no 'country' and, in fact, can be found in virtually every country of the world. We are fighting a philosophy whose tenets are the destruction of all peoples NOT believing as they.

We are not just fighting in Iraq, but the Judeo/Christian people of the world will be fighting wherever these avowed murderers hide under their rocks.
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Old 08-24-2007, 11:59 AM   #16
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Walt et al.

How can you be so blind to not see (or remember) that Sadam Murdered millions of his own people and hundreds of thousands of Kurds above that. He violated the mandates of the UN and President Bush did the bidding of the UN. Since it is obvious the UN is totally corrupt and disfunctional, their actions are, for the most part, lip service to freedom and the charter under which they operate.
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Old 08-25-2007, 08:02 AM   #17
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Hamguy,

You are correct the war on terror isn't about a county. They don't have an army! How can we possibly fight them with an army? We should fight the terrorists where they are and they weren't in Iraq. They are in Iraq now because we attacked their country. Remember the definition of terrorist, anyone who doesn't agree with Bush!

Everyone knows that Sadam was a bad guy! He was definitely in the top 10 in the World. However, your numbers are a little exagerated. They estimate that he was responsible for 61,000 deaths in Baghdad.

"The U.S.-led occupation authority in Iraq has said that at least 300,000 people are buried in mass graves in Iraq. Human rights officials put the number closer to 500,000, and some Iraqi political parties estimate more than 1 million were executed." However, those are the same Iraqi politicians that told us there were weapons of mass destruction.

You can read more about that at http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/...ent_288443.htm

At the same time Bush's war in Iraq is responsible for an estimated 400,000 Iraqi deaths. That number of course is highly classified, of coures. Then there are the 3,700 American boys and girls who won't ever be spending Christmas with their familes and the thousands who are permanently disfigured and their lives destroyed. Most Iraqis don't have clean water or depentable electricity. Then there are the millions who no longer have homes.

The big question here is don't we have a moral responsibility here? This country did nothing to us and was no threat to us. We choose to attack them. It's possible that more of them have died from Bush than from Sadam. If we executed Sadam for his crimes what about our responsibility?

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Old 08-25-2007, 08:24 AM   #18
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vegascpl:
Remember the definition of terrorist, anyone who doesn't agree with Bush! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You have a cite for that definition, I'm sure...

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Old 08-25-2007, 10:46 AM   #19
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">There are a lot of things that Clinton did for this country... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ever see the movie or read the book "Blachawk Down" about Clinton's botched handling of the folks in Somalia?
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Old 08-25-2007, 10:50 AM   #20
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Don't you EVER...EVER...forget...


Pure and simple. Evil.

And here we are, fast approaching the 6th year anniversary of the worst day I believe in this country's history...and we've all but forgotten.



Just like JFK, way more happened that day than we'll ever know.
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Old 08-25-2007, 11:07 AM   #21
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I received this from my daughter. As stated, Snopes cannot verify but I find no particular errors.

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Snopes has this as undetermined. But it IS applicable.


I wish I had written this. I agree with the premise entirely.
Why doesn't the Muslim community actively oppose terrorism?

YOU WORRY ME

This pilot hit the nail on the head in his open letter. He needs
to be awarded a Medal for having the TESTICULAR FORTITUDE to say
all this in a very profound way!

The newspaper stated today that some Muslim doctor is saying we
are profiling him because he has been checked three times while
getting on an airplane. The following is a letter from a pilot.
This well spoken man, who is a pilot with American Airlines, says
what is in his heart, beautifully.... Read, absorb and pass this
on.

"YOU WORRY ME!"

By American Airlines Pilot - Captain John Maniscalco I've been
trying to say this since 9-11, but you worry me. I wish you
didn't. I wish when I walked down the streets of this country
that I love, that your color and culture still blended with the
beautiful human landscape we enjoy in this country. But you don't
blend in anymore. I notice you, and it worries me. I notice you
because I can't help it anymore. People from your homelands,
professing to be Muslims, have been attacking and killing my
fellow citizens and our friends for more than 20 years now. I
don't fully understand their grievances and hate, but I know that
nothing can justify the inhumanity of their attacks.


On September 11, nineteen ARAB-MUSLIMS hijacked four jetliners in
my country. They cut the throats of women in front of children
and brutally stabbed to death others. They took control of those
planes and crashed them into buildings killing thousands of proud
fathers, loving sons, wise grandparents, elegant daughters, best
friends, favorite coaches, fearless public servants, and
children's mothers. The Palestinians Celebrated, the Iraqis were
overjoyed as was most of the Arab world.

So, I notice you now. I don't want to be worried. I don't want to
be consumed by the same rage and hate and prejudice that have
destroyed the soul of these terrorists. But I need your help. As
a rational American, trying to protect my country and family in
an irrational and unsafe world, I must know how to tell the
difference between you, and the Arab/Muslim terrorist.

How do I differentiate between the true Arab / Muslim-Americans
and the Arab Muslim terrorists in our communities who are
attending our schools, enjoying our parks, and living in OUR
communities under the protection of OUR constitution, while they
plot the next attack that will slaughter these same good
neighbors and children? The events of September 11th changed the
answer. It is not my responsibility to determine which of you
embraces our great country, with ALL of its religions, with ALL
of its different citizens, with all of its faults. It is time for
every Arab/Muslim in this country to determine it for me.

I want to know, I demand to know, and I have a right to know,
whether or not you love America ? Do you pledge allegiance to its
flag? Do you proudly display it in front of your house, or on
your car? Do you pray in your many daily prayers that Allah will
bless this nation, that He will protect and prosper it?

Or do you pray that Allah will destroy it in one of your
Jihads? Are you thankful for the freedom that only this nation
affords? A freedom that was paid for by the blood of hundreds of
thousands of patriots who gave their lives for this country? Are
you willing to preserve this freedom by also paying the ultimate
sacrifice? Do you love America ? If this is your commitment, then
I need YOU to start letting ME know about it.

Your Muslim leaders in this nation should be flooding the media
at this time with hard facts on your faith, and what hard actions
you are taking as a community and as a religion to protect the
United States of America. Please, no more benign overtures of
regret for the death of the innocent because I worry about who
you regard as innocent.

No more benign overtures of condemnation for the unprovoked
attacks because I worry about what is unprovoked to you. I am not
interested in any more sympathy. I am only interested in action.
What will you do for America - our great country - at this time
of crisis, at this time of war?

I want to see Arab-Muslims waving the AMERICAN flag in the
streets. I want to hear you chanting "Allah Bless America " I
want to see young Arab/Muslim men enlisting in the military. I
want to see a commitment of money, time, and emotion to the
victims of this butchering and to this nation as a whole.

The FBI has a list of over 400 people they want to talk to
regarding the WTC attack. Many of these people live and socialize
right now in Muslim communities. You know them. You know where
they are. Hand them over to us, now!

But I have seen little even approaching this sort of action.
Instead I have seen an already closed and secretive community
close even tighter. You have disappeared from the streets. You
have posted armed security guards at your facilities. You have
threatened lawsuits. You have screamed for protection from
reprisals.

The very few Arab/Muslim representatives that HAVE appeared in
the media were defensive and equivocating. They seemed more
concerned with making sure that the United States proves who was
responsible before taking action. They seemed more concerned with
protecting their fellow Muslims from violence directed towards
them in the United States and abroad than they did with
supporting our country and denouncing "leaders" like Khadafi,
Hussein, Farrakhan, and Arafat. If the true teachings of Islam
proclaim tolerance and peace and love for all people, then I want
chapter and verse from the Koran (Quran) and statements from
popular Muslim leaders to back it up. What good is it if the
teachings in the Koran are good, and pure, and true, when your
"leaders" are teaching fanatical interpretations, terrorism, and
intolerance?

It matters little how good Islam SHOULD BE if huge numbers of
the world's Muslims interpret the teachings of Mohammed
incorrectly and adhere to a degenerative form of the religion A
form that has been demonstrated to us over and over again. A form
whose structure is built upon a foundation of violence, death,
and suicide. A form [sic] whose members are recruited from the
prisons around the world. A form [sic] whose members (some as
young as five years old) are seen day after day, week in and week
out, year after a year, marching in the streets around the world,
burning effigies of our presidents, burning the American flag,
shooting weapons into the air. A form [sic] whose members convert
from a peaceful religion, only to take up arms against the great
United States of America , the country of their birth. A form
[sic] whose rules are so twisted, that their traveling members
refuse to show their faces at airport security checkpoints, in
the name of Islam.

We will NEVER allow the attacks of September 11, or any others
for that matter, to take away that which is so precious to us:
Our rights under the greatest constitution in the world. I want
to know where every Arab Muslim in this country stands and I
think it is my right and the right of every true citizen of this
country to demand it. A right paid for by the blood of thousands
of my brothers and sisters who died protecting the very
constitution that is protecting you and your family. I am
pleading with you to let me know. I want you here as my brother,
my neighbor, my friend, as a fellow American. But there can be no
gray areas or ambivalence regarding your allegiance and it is up
to YOU, to show ME, where YOU stand. Until then. "YOU WORRY ME!"
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Old 08-25-2007, 01:49 PM   #22
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I too try to stay away from the political discussions, however I cannot let this pass.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The big question here is don't we have a moral responsibility here? This country did nothing to us and was no threat to us. We choose to attack them. It's possible that more of them have died from Bush than from Sadam. If we executed Sadam for his crimes what about our responsibility? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Vegascpl, do you actually believe this drivel. Are you actually implying that Bush should be held accountable for the civilian deaths in Iraq, and perhaps be executed????? I think you will find the vast majority of civilian deaths in Iraq are a result of insurgents, religious militants, terrorists, suicide bombers and the like. They all have a choice to make peace or war.... they have decided to make war and we (the US Armed Forces) are trying to stop the violence, stop the killing. I get the feeling that you probably feel the same about John F. Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson on the Vietnam War. What about Harry Truman and the use of the Atomic Bomb, I'm sure you can easily make that correlation too.

You also have a selective memory as to why we invaded Iraq in the first place. It was to enforce the United Nations demands for weapons inspections. Everyone suspected that Iraq had WMD (Weapons of Mass Destruction) of some kind or another. When you continually deny inspections when the UN mandates them, the level of suspicion goes up. Even both houses of Congress voted to intervine. Perhaps there were none, perhaps we will never know, but the bottom line is that almost everyone wanted to find out including most US Senators and Congressmen and most of the other Nations of the World. Everybody wants to second guess decisions like that and hindsight is always 20/20. There are a lot of people trying to make George Bush the lone scapegoat when in actually there were many people that had a hand in those decisions. Sometimes it is the ones that are most fervent in the witch-hunt who are trying to divert attention from themselves.

Stepping down off my soapbox now....
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Old 08-25-2007, 02:01 PM   #23
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Ladies and gentlemen, pursuant to the rules and guidelines for the "Just Conversation" forum topic, disagreements with one another's points of view are understood....Let's not get personal as that's not permitted...

Thank you all for your continued support of iRV2.
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Old 08-25-2007, 02:05 PM   #24
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vegascpl:
Remember the definition of terrorist, anyone who doesn't agree with Bush! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have a cite for that definition, I'm sure... Rusty[/QUOTE]

I sure do:

The quote: "Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists." comes from this address:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0010920-8.html

You'll find it in about the 31st paragraph.

The latest is we need to "Stay the Course" comparing Iraq to Vietnam. That's an excellent comparison. Can any of you think of one reason why should have stayed in Vietnam? Just think of the lives that would have been saved if we had gotten out earlier!

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Old 08-25-2007, 02:14 PM   #25
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vegascpl:
I sure do:

The quote: "Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists." comes from this address:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0010920-8.html </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's really quite a stretch!! Let's think back to the days immediately following 9/11. America had been attacked on its own soil, and some 3,000 had been killed. Just as was the case with Pearl Harbor, this was an act of war against America. Now, in a time of war, the time comes to choose up sides. That's all the statement meant, and I agree with it fully.

To stretch that to mean that President Bush was demanding unquestioning orthodoxy with every one of his positions, policies and decisions is, frankly, intellectually dishonest.

Rusty
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Old 08-25-2007, 02:15 PM   #26
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Howard Leap:
I too try to stay away from the political discussions, however I cannot let this pass.

[snip]
Vegascpl, do you actually believe this drivel. Are you actually implying that Bush should be held accountable for the civilian deaths in Iraq, and perhaps be executed????? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>He also continues, indeed insists that the US has killed 400,000 Iraqi civilians. This line of BS has been thoroughly discounted by the Iraqi Government, the Red Cross and the GREAT UN! Not a lick of truth and IIRC, it was a michael moore lie.



I have edited personal comments regarding another member from this post....they WILL NOT be tolerated....
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Old 08-25-2007, 02:47 PM   #27
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Rebelsbeach,

If it is me your referring to....I apologize.
Quite honestly, I was upset that this thread's original intent about American Pride was hijacked into a political discussion on Iraq. And after reading the ensuing posts I became Popeye: "I've had all I can stand! I can't stands no more!" (That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.)
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Old 08-25-2007, 03:49 PM   #28
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I'm sure we all have selective memory. However, Sept. 17, 2002 UNITED NATIONS (CNN) --"In a letter handed over to the United Nations on Monday, Iraq said it would allow the return of U.N. weapons inspectors "without conditions" to "remove any doubts Iraq still possesses weapons of mass destruction."
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/m...raq.un.letter/

December 2002
"United Nations weapons inspectors returned to Iraq this month for the first time since December 1998 after the UN Security Council passed Resolution 1441 November 8 requiring Iraq to admit inspectors."
http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2002_12/iraq_dec02.asp

Feb 20, 2003

So frustrated have the inspectors become that one source has referred to the U.S. intelligence they've been getting as "garbage after garbage after garbage."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in537096.shtml

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- "The United Nations' top two weapons experts said Sunday that the invasion of Iraq a year ago was not justified by the evidence in hand at the time"
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/03/21/iraq.weapons/

The UN weapons inspectors were there, found nothing, and left just before the invasion.

The only information we had about WMDs came from political apponents of Sadam. We had no credible intelligents information about them. Bush knew that there was no atomic bomb threat from Iraq but yet he used it in his State of the Union speach. Therefore one has to assume that Bush knew there were no WMDs. He just wanted to believe there was. We now know there weren't. It seems that everyone else knew the truth. Congress and the American people had to listen to Bush as he had the intelligence they didn't. So did Bush lie? If so is he guilty of war crimes? If you prefer to think that he didn't lie then you know the intelligence was faulty. What do you think of a President who takes his country into war based on faulty intelligence?

As for Iraqi deaths it's really hard to know for sure. All anyone can do is estimate as our secret government would never release those numbers if they had them. However, this war was justified on fautly intelligence or lies. Does it matter is the death count is 300,000 or a million? The fact is we are responsible for about the same number of Iraqi deaths as Sadam and in a much shorter time.

Hamguy you might find this interesting. "A team of American and Iraqi epidemiologists estimates that 655,000 more people have died in Iraq since coalition forces arrived in March 2003 than would have died if the invasion had not occurred."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...AR2006101001442.html


Tell me again about why this war is about my freedom? I don't get it? No actully don't. I think I've heard it all and frankly I'm tired. Time to move on.

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