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Old 11-29-2008, 06:45 PM   #127
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ktp_guy,

I think what they are looking at is the burden labor rate. That is the total amount the employee is costing the company to put him on the plant floor to work and they have to make more from him that this amount to turn a profit.. It is his wages, benefits, workmans comp, retirement payments etc.

Ken
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Old 11-30-2008, 12:41 PM   #128
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The economy is in critical condition and I for one hope that the government makes the right decision based on the ECONOMY and not on personal feelings, or fairness.

Im a truck driver and dont have a clue if tax money should be thrown at the big 3 or not.

We vote for people to think these things through and have to trust they make the right choices.
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Old 11-30-2008, 01:36 PM   #129
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RustyJC:

Toyota and Honda were profitable through the quarter ending September 30th. The Big 3 were not. What's your definition of success??

Rusty </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry. I meant to say the U.S. operations of Toyota and Honda were not successful. Toyota's profits were propped up by its imported small cars. The two U.S. truck plants, in Indiana and Texas, were shut down. The car plant in Kentucky has had a shut down, and 500 temporary employees were let go. Toyota is going to report its first decline in profits, ever.

Honda is primarily a small car company, and its small cars sold well during the fuel crunch. But its attempts to move up in the market with larger vehicles like the Pilot, Ridgeline and Odyssey were not successful. Honda is consolidating its large vehicle production in one plant (Alabama, maybe?) so it can open up more room for Civic production.

And Ford was profitable in the first quarter of 2008, around 100 million dollars, if I remember right.


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Old 11-30-2008, 01:49 PM   #130
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TXiceman:
ktp_guy,

I think what they are looking at is the burden labor rate. That is the total amount the employee is costing the company to put him on the plant floor to work and they have to make more from him that this amount to turn a profit.. It is his wages, benefits, workmans comp, retirement payments etc.

Ken </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ken

Those costs are reported to me in my annual statement of earnings and benefits. It shows line items for Retirement, Layoff, Disability, Life Insurance, Health Care and Social Security. I don't know if Worker's Comp is in there. I added the cost of the benefits to my direct compensation, and divided by the total number of hours I worked during the year. That's where the 42 to 48 dollars an hour comes from. Its a long way from 70 dollars an hour.


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Old 11-30-2008, 08:25 PM   #131
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The Big 3 cannot compete with their current labor agreements. Should they get a bail-out it would only be a bandaid unless they can get major concessions from ALL the labor unions.

Auto makers are not the only ones in financial trouble. ALL local and state governments have promised far more than they can pay in salaries and retirement benefits. In the near future many of these entities will demand a bailout from the feds (or someone)or will declare bankruptcy. Does anyone feel a heavy hand on your wallet or bank account? HIGHER TAXES?
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Old 12-01-2008, 06:09 AM   #132
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CarlGeo, In the auto factory where I worked we were told that we could work for $0 and they would still move out of the US. It wasn't our quality[1 part per 10,000 bad], it was the money from our government and the government in Mexico that convinced them to move. The middle class is rapidly disappearing because the wages are going down and the prices are going up.Soon there will be the rich and the poor if this cycle continues. I, personally, don't want to live in a third world country. Wages are not the problem, wastful government spending seems to top that list. Indiana Journey
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Old 12-01-2008, 07:07 AM   #133
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KTP: The rewarding of the deferred unfunded pension and medial cost as well as the un heard of “30 and out” retirement allowing people to retire at 80% pay will full gold plated medical was bargained by between the union and the management of the big 3. Any thinking person would have known at the time it was a time bomb waiting to go off. It was stupid and greedy on both parts. We in the private industry and in private business have fully funded pensions like IRA and 401k. The transplants fully fund their employees pensions like is normal for America. There are about 3 plus retired workers for every working employee in the big three. This is the problem. As to whether you are worth $48, I would think you should compare your education and skills to that of for example a registered nurse who generally has a 4 year college degree, state license and can easily kill or allow people to die if they make a mistake. You make about twice the pay they do, you have about twice the benefits they do including 17 paid holidays, and have a gold plated health insurance plan. I ask you is this fair. You can make this same analogy for school teacher. Your $48 an hourly is way above the transplants and is about what they make in total compensation. The big three were in deep trouble even when the economy was booming. Can’t pay $73/hour total compensation when your competition is paying only $48/total compensation. This business plan will not work. You call this a loan. There isn’t a bank in America that would make this loan as it won’t be paid back until the model is fixed. Bankruptcy and correction of these extravagant labor, medial and retirement benefits is the only way it will ever be fixed. Lots of union employees and retirees are going to be hurt, but it is going to happen as the taxpayer won’t keep paying for these 51 year old retirees benefits. Sorry for you, but start getting prepared .You might get this bailout, but within 6 months when it has all gone to the early retirees benefits instead of cars, they American people will rise up and demand fairness. Why should a working 58 year old pay his taxes to support a 53 year old retiree who made gold plates wages and didn’t prepare for his own retirement like the rest of us. This will not continue. Get yourself ready.
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Old 12-01-2008, 10:04 AM   #134
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Lindsay, Your idea of "thirty and out" only being available to the auto workers is wrong. It has been there for several people, in different ways, for many years-Railroads, police, firemen, armed services to name a few. 80% of wages for retirement- wishful thinking. Try 60% maybe. Most of the 401ks and IRAs were just rescued to the tune of $700 billion, no strings attached. The education and skills required to earn a Journeymans card in the UAW plants are; 2000+ hours of classroom studys and 4 years of "on the job training". Most RNs have four years of college[I have 2 sisters that are RNs] When I started working in an auto plant we didn't make that good of wages and the benefits were almost nonexistant. Now, many of the auto workers make decent wages and have good benefits.If you will check, many of these wages and benefits have been taken back by the auto companied in the 2007 contract. The Union workers are trying to help the auto companies get back on their feet and show a profit. Hopefully,Congress will see fit to loan the auto companies the money to see them through this unusual monetary crisis. The auto industry employs about 3 million people as a whole, I think that would put a larger dent in the taxpayers pocket if they were paid unemployment benefits. Also, the government would loose a large sum of tax money that those 3 million people pay each year. Indiana Journey
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Old 12-01-2008, 10:52 AM   #135
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30 and out without funding the retirement is a horrible idea no matter who does it. Police and fire are fully funded at time of retirement and not unfounded like the UAW. If you think the IRA and 401k’s were just rescued with no strings attached, you haven’t been reading the newspapers. Most are down by 40% and are not planned to be “rescued”. They are dependant on the stock market generally. 60% retirement for a 51 year old is highly unusually and a gold plated medical plan to boot. (I pay $1948/month for my medical plan which is no where as good as the UAW being aid for by the buyers of today’s vehicles.) 35 years ago. I worked in MI and had many female employees who’s husbands worked at the local Fisher Body plant. These guys made about twice what a nurse or teacher made. The main requirement for work was to have a relative in the union. These workers bragged quite bit on what they made, their benefits and why. It was way out of line then and the deferred portions is what is killing the auto business now. The auto problems are not an unusual monetary crisis. They have been hemorrhaging money for years and this is just the final blow. If they needed a loan, go to a bank. They have no credit and very little chance of ever paying back a loan unless they can get rid of these crushing labor, medical and retiree costs. You statement about the unemployment benefits is totally incorrect and this is a pittance compared to the presently cost of the $73 per hour total compensation. I am posting some links below that you might find interesting. They come from data from the economics Dept of the Univ of MI. They are staggering and cut through lot of the strange things you see on these forums. I know this type of thing is sad for some, but you an not epect the taxpayer to keep on paying for the early retirement and gold plated medical care of people who retired 15 year earlier than the norm. Taxpayers won’t stand for it and even if you get the $25,000,000,000.00 this time, in another 6 months when it is used up in nonproductive ways, Americans will balk at throwing money down this black hole again. Prepare yourself. With a structured bankruptcy, not a day of production will be lost. The wages, benefits, executive pay, and others things will just be made by a judge to allow the companies to continue.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_otfw...Og/s1600-h/wages.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_otfw...Rgaw/s1600-h/wsj.gif

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_otfw.../s1600-h/retired.jpg
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Old 12-01-2008, 12:11 PM   #136
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Time to chime in here. The Union be it UAW or CAW in no way caused the lost jobs or reduced production in the auto industry. The world economic down turn wasn't caused by autoworkers....these workers lost their jobs due to the world economy. Blaming the unionized auto worker for this recession is totally wrong. Honda is laying workers off and they aren't even unionized.
The North American auto industry isn't dying now because of high wages or benifits..its dying because everyone buys cheaper off shore vehicles. North Americans have sold out to the cheap off shore markets and are now paying in lost jobs and manufacturing. What retail stores sells the most and makes the most profits of any other stores????? Are there goods made in America????? We continually shoot ourselves in the foot, then cry when we can't stand the pain. We are to blame and no one else.
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Old 12-01-2008, 02:27 PM   #137
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The demise of the big 3 happened long before the world economy took it’s recent downturn. Detroit has been hemorrhaging money for years. The 12 foreign companies with plants in America staffed by American workers were doing quite well in this until this recent downturn. The Americans working at these places are averaging $48 per hour total compensation (wages, benefits, medical, and retirement) which is much higher than the avverge American worker and they love their auto jobs. The big 3 are avenging $73 per hour for the same factors and there are long waiting lists for people to go to work in the Southern and Western auto plants. The job bank of laid off big 3 worker who receive 95% pay and do no productive work is at 12,000 people. They have 3 retired workers (many in their early 50’s who have gold plated medical program nearly free and huge nonfunded retirement obligations paid for by the buyers of today‘s vechiles). Market share for the big 3 continues to decline. Average hours for similar vehicles are higher for the big 3 as the transplants do not have the union work rules and have higher efficiencies and quicker change overs. The UAW is a dinosaur that has already killed the old American auto work force and is trying to get the last of the goodie’s from the hulk. The current tactic is to get the American taxpayer to foot these billions a year for people way overpaid (nonunion workers prove this) and allowed to retire 15 years earlier than the rest of the working public. This is not going to happen and if it does happen this time, the present people working hard and trying to save for their retirement and pay their medical insurance are not going to be real thrilled about paying for the early 50’s goodies from their hard earned taxes.
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Old 12-01-2008, 04:39 PM   #138
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lindsay Richards:
Your $48 an hourly is way above the transplants and is about what they make in total compensation. The big three were in deep trouble even when the economy was booming. Can’t pay $73/hour total compensation when your competition is paying only $48/total compensation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lindsay

The $48/hour is my total compensation, not what I'm paid. The D3 (I guess that's the new term for three Detroit based auto companies) are paying the same for labor as the major transplants. A major reason the transplants pay that well is to keep the UAW out.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lindsay Richards:
The 12 foreign companies with plants in America staffed by American workers were doing quite well in this until this recent downturn. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The D3 were too. Ford made a profit of 100 million dollars in the 1st quarter of 2008.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lindsay Richards:
The big 3 are avenging $73 per hour for the same factors </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The D3 pay the same as the major transplants.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lindsay Richards:
TThe job bank of laid off big 3 worker who receive 95% pay and do no productive work is at 12,000 people. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know how many are in the job bank. The ones that are, receive 40 hours pay per week. Depending where they are, they can be required to take training, perform community service, do non-traditional work or just sit in a trailer 8 hours a day.

You may be thinking of sub-pay. It supplements unemployment compensation to 95% of normal 40 hour take home pay, less $17.50. Then taxes are taken out. Kind of a double taxation.

Both plans were designed to stabilize the lives of workers whose industries were subject to major tooling changes every 3-4 years.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lindsay Richards:
Average hours for similar vehicles are higher for the big 3 as the transplants do not have the union work rules and have higher efficiencies and quicker change overs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the last few years, the D3 have dramatically closed the efficiency gap between them and the transplants. GM, in particular, is rapidly closing in on Toyota. Partly because GM was so inefficient it could make good improvements, and partly because Toyota was already so efficient it had little room to improve.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lindsay Richards:
...allowed to retire 15 years earlier than the rest of the working public. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unless the working public is working into their 70's or 80's, most union workers are not retiring 15 years early. To retire at 50, with 30 years service, you had to hire in at age 20, and have uninterrupted service. The disruptions in the auto industry in the 1980's make it hard for a young person to have uninterrupted service. Here in Kentucky, we've had a lot of new hires since 1993. Most of them are in their late 20's-early 30's. They'll be in their late 50's-early 60's when they get 30 years in.

And, as an aside, the 30 and out program was like Social Security, in that for every two dollars you earned after retirement, you lost one dollar of pension. Increases in the cost of living forced many early retirees to go back to work, and lose much, if not all, of their pension.



In the United States, labor cost per vehicle are virtually the same for the D3 and the major transplants. Labor costs for both are about 8.5% of the list price. The union, per se, is not the cause of the D3's problems.

And the UAW did not agree to an unfunded/deferred retirement plan. They accepted a defined benefit plan, which was supposed to be protected by law.

Larry
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Old 12-01-2008, 05:45 PM   #139
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Unfortunately you are mixing total compensation and wages. I don’t know if you looked at the other links I posted, but I suspect not. The total compensation including everything that it cost the company pr hour of employee working on a car is the $73. Click on this link and it explains it for Chrysler

http://www.heritage.org/Resear...es/wm2135_table1.gif

Cost/hr % of total cost
wages $29.15 38
Healthcare $20.14 27
All other compensation $26.57 35


You have to figure in the huge costs of the retirees into the mix that the union plants have that is charged off to they buyers of today’s cars. As you can seem this is almost as much as the current labor as there are 3+ retired for each current worker. The retirees cost in the transplants are fully funded and figured into the $48/hour total compensation of today’s cars from the non union plants.


The job bank presently has 12,000 members who are not needed as the big 3’s market share continues to plummet and they are paid the 95% . Unemployment compensation is not free and is an insurance program paid for by the company and charged back to the buyers of today‘s cars. The higher companies payout to unemployment compensation the more their rate is and the more they have to charge for the cars. There is no free lunch. When 12,000 people are paid for doing nothing, the buyers of today’s cars have to pickup the tab. Sad, but true.

&gt;&gt;&gt;The D3 were too. Ford made a profit of 100 million dollars in the 1st quarter of 2008.

The big 3 have been losing money for years in the US. Ford made money in it’s foreign nonunion divisions to offset this for one quarter, but all three executives in front of congress state this fact as they were asking for a “loan” that no bank will give them as they have little chance of ever paying it back.

&gt;&gt;&gt;The D3 pay the same as the major transplants.

Look at the graphs. You have to look at total compensation, not just the hourly wage. The difference is staggering and the cause that they industry will be folding if something not done immediately. You guys must understand this is see the problem and the hopelessness of your situation.

From what I have read, there are about 20 to 25 % fewer man hours less is a transplant car of similar size and sales price between the transplants and the union plants. I be interested in any link to the contrary. I’d love for the big 3 to be better being an American and a patriot myself.

The current social security retirement age is 66 years old. You state that newer ones will be reting in there late 50’s an early 60’s. This is still a large inequity between the union and the normal American worker. A point that is frequently missed is that the union workers didn’t have to put away any of their current money for retirement. I, my wife and many American workers put away upwards of 10% of their earnings each year for retirement. You big 3 workers did not have to do this as it was being added on top and was actually like getting 10% more than the normal American worker. You could, for example, take a couple of trips to the Bahamas each year on the money I was saving for retirement, because you didn’t have to save it. Now that the golden goose is nearly dead, you want me (as a taxpayer) to pay it for you. I’d be interested in seeing a your link about the labor cost being the same on the transplant as the union cars as this contradicts what I have seen. The average being about $2,500 per average car is commonly quoted. The bottom line is that the big 3 are asking the taxpayer to foot the bill and asking the family who is still working hard to pay for the very large benefits and wages for people who have already retired early after spending 30 years making double what a nurse or teacher made. This is asking too much and the American people won’t permit it, in my humble opinion.
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Old 12-01-2008, 08:09 PM   #140
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Interesting debate about who is causing what with the big 3. I think that one factor that hasn't been mentioned here is the way the cars were bought and sold. What I mean by this is that people would come in and buy a car or truck with no money down and 0% interest. So they would start upside down as they drove the car off the lot. Then when they would buy a new car the negative equity would be rolled over into the new car load putting them even further in the hole. Now their interest only home loan payment adjusted up and now they couldn't afford the home or the car. But there was no way to sell the car for what they owed. So the factor here is greed. Greed to want something the buyer really couldn't afford and greed on the seller/bank to make the deal to people who had no business getting into the deal. The gotta have it now attitude sure is getting it now.

Just my 2 cents
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