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Old 12-09-2008, 12:47 PM   #183
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quote "I have a big problem with people who are working to full retirement age (now 66 and rising) being taxed to pay for people who retired 15 years earlier than they did."


Then I guess your not a big fan of government workers
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Old 12-09-2008, 02:04 PM   #184
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I am against anybody having an unfunded retirement whether it be business or government. Most fire, police and teachers are funded although this is now somewhat in dispute. (Many take it as a lump sum and invest it themselves.) If you work for anybody and make for example $75,000 a year and say $5,000 is put aside and invested out of today’s costs for your retirement, I have no problems. This is the way it is generally done in the private sector. (IRA or 401k) It can be matched or partially matched as a part of today’s expenses and also get some very favorable tax treatment for the individual and he employer. It encourages people saving and planning for retirement and not becoming a burden later on. When you put away a small amount and say we will pay you X amount way down the road from tomorrow’s sales, then you are just asking for trouble as well as being unfair to the worker. This assumes a whole lot of growth and continued prosperity of the business or government. This isn’t done too much in other counties either. For example, Toyota has been making cars for 70 years and has zero built up legacy cost where GM has been making cars for 100 years and has about $60 billion in unfunded legacy costs. Pretty easy to see how you can get into an impossible situation. Not sure how the Federal government does it. I know social security pays today’s retirees from the funds of today’s workers and is going to hit a wall at some point. Can’t imagine how private business can do what the auto companies did. It has brought down the industry and can not continue. Anybody who looks at it rationally can come to no other conclusion.


http://mjperry.blogspot.com/20...6-why-no-legacy.html
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Old 12-09-2008, 07:15 PM   #185
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Lindsay, To read the article you need to include the complete listing- slashing wages will hurt workers, but it won't save the big three/- I don't know why it didn't come out that way. Sorry for the inconvienence. Indiana Journey
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Old 12-10-2008, 03:49 AM   #186
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I still could not make it work. I took out the spaces and tried several different versions. You might try going there again and copying the who line and paste it into another post.

Thanks
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Old 12-10-2008, 10:25 AM   #187
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A Modern Parable.

A Japanese company (Toyota) and an American company (Ford Motors) decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River. Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.

On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.

The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action.

Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 7 people steering and 2 people rowing.

Feeling a deeper study was in order; American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion.

They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing.

Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 2 area steering superintendents and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.

They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 2 people rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the 'Rowing Team Quality First Program,' with meetings, dinners and free pens for the rowers. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses. The pension program was trimmed to 'equal the competition' and some of the resultant savings were channeled into morale boosting programs and teamwork posters.

The next year the Japanese won by two miles.

Humiliated, the American management laid-off one rower, halted development of a new canoe, sold all the paddles, and canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses.

The next year, try as he might, the lone designated rower was unable to even finish the race (having no paddles,) so he was laid off for unacceptable performance, all canoe equipment was sold and the next year's racing team was out-sourced to India.

Sadly, the End.

Here's something else to think about: Ford has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US , claiming they can't make money paying American wages.

TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants

"Just a little light hearted humor. No offense to anybody here". I figured we could all use it.

Bob O
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Old 12-10-2008, 04:14 PM   #188
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Bob O, it is funny and sad, but I am afraid that it is very close to the truth.

American business has gotten fat and top heavy and it is time to start trimming things seriously.

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Old 12-10-2008, 07:26 PM   #189
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http://www.alternet.org/workpl...save_the_big_three_/ Lindsay, Try this, it might work. Indiana Journey
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Old 12-11-2008, 04:09 AM   #190
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Working for free would reduce car prices by 5% . Ignores the facts that wages re about 1/3 of the total compensation for workers and retirees,

Cutting everything would save only about 10%. Duh, the difference is about $2500 per car and this doesn’t include the huge cost of the work rules that increase the costs. Spending over 1 billion a year on “jobs bank” where 12,000 workers paid to do nothing with these figures. Two tiered system for new hires is a joke as with huge layoffs there won’t be any new hires probably ever as there are thousands waiting to comeback. This is another attempt at subterfuge by UAW. Saying they have wrung billions of dollars of concessions from UAW ignores the facts that there was over a $25 difference in total compensation in 2007. Facts are that they receive way over double of the average American worker plus gold, gold, gold plated healthcare and retirement 15 years before other workers. I agree that the managment decided to make the wrong style of cars (Which I bought.) The union resist automation and quick changeovers which incease efficiencies and reduce costs. They blame everything on management. 12 foreign companies are making huge investments, making money, and employing about 40% of highly satisfied US auto workers in modern efficient world competitive factories. What is different between these factories and the Big Three? I see two things, Management which has changed on a regular basis and the UAW. I suggest for the future of these jobs we get rid of both and allow these companies to try to survive in today’s world marketplace. Accepting the piddling 3% cuts by the UAW and “suspending” the jobs bank rather than doing away with it and heralding them as huge cuts won’t get it. Both sides are determined to ride this horse right into the swamp. The thing that I don’t like is that now they want me as a taxpayer to continue to pay for these gold plated jobs, healthcare, and retiree benefits. If both parties are not willing to make the changes necessary to save them, then get rid of both parties. Nothing short of this will work. The article suggest government paid healthcare government paid pensions, global warming, credit problems, but did manage to leave out Mom and apple pie. It was a slanted union hit piece presenting only one side of the argument as one would expect from this publication and demonstrates that this problem isn’t going to be solved as the UAW still apparently doesn’t think there is a problem. Well there is a problem and it is the American people are not going to be taxes to pay for these gold plated benefits that they don’t enjoy themselves. Might happen once or maybe twice, but as the information gets out more and more taxpayers are not going to permit it.
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Old 12-11-2008, 08:21 AM   #191
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Well, $14 Billion dollar bailout (total) has passed one hurdle, I think its off to the Senate next.
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Old 12-11-2008, 09:55 AM   #192
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Joseph C. McKenzie:
Well, $14 Billion dollar bailout (total) has passed one hurdle, I think its off to the Senate next. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


If it indeed passes, which it seems it will, just think of it as the first of likely MANY car payments --- only this time you won't need license plates, inspections, etc. Oh, and don't worry about payment books or all that nonsense --- the IRS will collect it all from you, your kids, your grandkids, etc., etc., etc.

Good thing is, those with probably more than you (earnings, pensions, health care coverage, etc.) will STOP WHINING (oh wait, they have a National and a bunch of Locals to keep the look of flowing tears going).

Wow - welfare for the relatively rich. What a country. Now, what can we do for all those other pampered and spoiled folks out there?
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Old 12-11-2008, 10:39 AM   #193
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeeTheUSA:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Joseph C. McKenzie:
Well, $14 Billion dollar bailout (total) has passed one hurdle, I think its off to the Senate next. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


If it indeed passes, which it seems it will, just think of it as the first of likely MANY car payments --- only this time you won't need license plates, inspections, etc. Oh, and don't worry about payment books or all that nonsense --- the IRS will collect it all from you, your kids, your grandkids, etc., etc., etc.

Good thing is, those with probably more than you (earnings, pensions, health care coverage, etc.) will STOP WHINING (oh wait, they have a National and a bunch of Locals to keep the look of flowing tears going).

Wow - welfare for the relatively rich. What a country. Now, what can we do for all those other pampered and spoiled folks out there? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My vote is still bankrupt 'em. My vehicle is old enough I'm not getting parts from the original manufacturer anymore. Its either aftermarket producers, like Niehoff, Holley, and several others, or from the scrap yard. Truck was built 16, going on 17 years ago.

All the folks with those fancy new cars with all the sophisticated computer parts will be the ones that'll be floatin' up s-creek with no paddle, especially since the part costs are almost 10x what the parts for the old beast cost.

Just replaced my computer this year. Remanufactured PCM, total cost = $174. Tell me of a newer vehicle whose computer can be replaced for less than a high 3 digit to 4 digit price tag.
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Old 12-11-2008, 10:40 AM   #194
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The bill passed in the House is loaded up with a bunch of environmental stuff that will hurt the auto companies like allowing each state to have separate standards for taailpipe emmissions. California has this now and it causes a lot of confusion and inefficiencies. There are now 29 different state mandated gasoline formulations which cause the refineries to reduce efficiencies and raises the price to us. This would be even worse. This is a payback to all of the environmental groups that donated so much money to the House candidates. The UAW and other unions also donated millions to house candidates. The senate bill does not have these environmentalist provisions and won’t have them. Strange that ll of this global warming stuff is being thrown in when we are having an extremely early winter this year and the earth has not warmed for 8 years now. There is also included in the house bill a provision that will increase the pay of many federal employees. The house can’t seem to just leave things as they are and vote on one thing at a time. They slip in the pork and the supercilious stuff. They might or might not be good ideas, but vote on them separately where we can see how our reps voted.
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Old 12-11-2008, 05:21 PM   #195
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If they are worried about the environment, they need to reduce all of the hot air in DC. It is really bad that so many congressman have to load up there favorite pork-barrel project to anything they can and add more to swap votes. They need to put aside all of the party issues and work on the problems that face the country.

The will in typical fashion, wait to the last minute and not address the real issues before them.

Every needs to seen emails to their congressman and express your displeasure with their add-ons to the bill.

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Old 12-13-2008, 04:03 PM   #196
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Ok here goes nothing, the big 3 bailout, are those congressmen crazy, if the big 3 fail the next great depression is upon us. We were in the car when I heard that the southern senators shot down the bailout. Before hearing any of the pundits put their spin on it I had it pretty much figured it out. Those leading the charge were from the states with the foreign auto makers in their states which the states and homeland governments subsidize, so they pretty much are putting American auto companies out of business to benefit the foreign auto companies. This is getting very close to treason from where I stand, plus they get to bust another union that gets their workers a fair wage and benefits. When are we going to wake up and say enough is enough. They've sent most of our manufacturing off shore now the want to give the rest away!
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