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Old 12-13-2008, 04:20 PM   #197
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People who vilify unions have little concept of the reasoning behind them. I've been a union member my entire adult life. It has afforded me a fair wage,benefits and working conditions. I've been a carpenter since I was 18, the union never guaranteed me a job they gave me an opportunity to EARN a living. People distort union workers calling them lazy and overpaid, I would challenge any of those folks to work beside me for a day and they repeat the statement. If you are a union member and think the world owes you a living you'll be out on your Azz pretty quick. They provide opportunity you supply the will to work. I must admit I resent folks with these distorted views and would love to have a heart to heart talk about all the good the unions do for their members. Guess I'd better sign off as I could go on forever.
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Old 12-13-2008, 05:44 PM   #198
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Do you think all the unrelated "pork" that has been added to auto loan bill could have anything to do with opposition to it?
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Old 12-13-2008, 06:07 PM   #199
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I think the opposition is self serving BS. If They were Honest about their reasons they would end up ridden out of town on a rail. Changes need to be made, but why on the back of the working man? Contracts are negotiated by 2 parties, to get the pension and health care other concessions
are made that's how it's done, now everyone is out for the retirees head just isn't fair. How about the stock holders returning past dividends? Didn't think so.
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Old 12-13-2008, 07:29 PM   #200
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Hondo122, Well said, I agree 100%. Indiana Journey
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Old 12-14-2008, 03:38 AM   #201
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Hi: So far, a pretty good "discussion". AND...so far, nobody has attacked or "flamed" anyone else personally, even though it's an emotional issue. Ya know, I guess Americans (at least those hereon iRV2) CAN discuss things WITHOUT resorting to childish, useless and distracting slamming of others who might have different views, opinions, thoughts, etc. It's VERY, VERY hard not to personally attack others in a discussion such as this, and you folks are a "cut above" many other forums. There were things I too wanted to say about points made in this discussion, but was afraid to. Guess I wanted to see if ya'all would take the "high ground" or the "low road." Like most, there are things that I think that I think (and I mean.."THINK that I think"), that I'd like to discuss, but I'm still AFRAID that others in this discussion might end up attacking me personally rather than DISCUSSING points of view from which I might really LEARN something. OH WELL, being AFRAID is a terrible thing. Too bad the bullies in this world have learned to use fear and intimidation to get, and keep getting, what they want rather than to use open minded discussion, thinking about, and understanding to LEARN together how to improve our world. OH SHEEEZE,....ENOUGH ALREADY.......sorry. Bye. Steve
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Old 12-14-2008, 04:03 AM   #202
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Steve,

One of the rules of conduct stringently enforced here at iRV2 for years is that forbidding flaming, or personal attacks. We encourage vigorous discussion of the topic, but personal attacks are NOT tolerated. Period.

As my dear old dad used to say, "Just because people disagree doesn't mean they have to be disagreeable."

C'mon and jump in the discussion.

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Old 12-14-2008, 04:44 AM   #203
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hondo122:
We were in the car when I heard that the southern senators shot down the bailout. Before hearing any of the pundits put their spin on it I had it pretty much figured it out. Those leading the charge were from the states with the foreign auto makers in their states which the states and homeland governments subsidize, so they pretty much are putting American auto companies out of business to benefit the foreign auto companies. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The Houston Chroncle has a section every Sunday telling how our Senators and Representatives voted the previous week. I checked your assertions out since Texas has both domestic (GM-Arlington) and foreign (Toyota-San Antonio) manufacturers within its borders.

1. The vote tended to go along party lines with Democrats voting for a bailout and Republicans voting against a bailout. This is more of a philosophical split as Republicans for the most part don't believe it's the Government's role to interfere in a free market or to run businesses.

2. There were a couple of interesting votes - the representative for the Arlington area voted for the bailout, while the San Antonio representatives were split, with some voting for it and some voting against it.

3. The analysis I saw indicated that opposition to the bailout was strongest in "right to work" states rather than in those states with non-Big 3 manufacturing facilities.

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Old 12-14-2008, 06:57 AM   #204
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

1. The vote tended to go along party lines with Democrats voting for a bailout and Republicans voting against a bailout. This is more of a philosophical split as Republicans for the most part don't believe it's the Government's role to interfere in a free market or to run businesses.

2. There were a couple of interesting votes - the representative for the Arlington area voted for the bailout, while the San Antonio representatives were split, with some voting for it and some voting against it.

3. The analysis I saw indicated that opposition to the bailout was strongest in "right to work" states rather than in those states with non-Big 3 manufacturing facilities.

Rusty </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right to work states is a term that the anti union folks use when they want the government to interfere on business behalf. Look I'm not saying all unions are good and honest, I'm saying that folks should have a level field when they make the decision one way or another. The Right to work states stack the deck in favor of big business. JMO
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Old 12-14-2008, 07:49 AM   #205
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hondo122:
Right to work states is a term that the anti union folks use when they want the government to interfere on business behalf. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your definition is quite subjective. A more balanced discussion can be found HERE.

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Old 12-14-2008, 10:07 AM   #206
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When posters like myself point out that the Big Three have 12,000 workers in the ďJobs BankĒ program not working but getting 95% pay and benefits and the UAW will only ďsuspendĒ the program, not eliminate it, it can not be accurately called union bashing. It is a call for common sense. When posters point out the Big Three are paying $73/hour total compensation instead of the transplantís $48/hour total compensation, and the average Americanís $29/hour total compensation, it can not be called union bashing, but common sense. When the Big Three have between $60 an $100 billion in unfunded legacy cost to people retiring in their early 50ís and guaranteed gold plated medical and retirement incomes for life and now demand that the taxpayers foot the bill without any reduction in these plans that are much better than the taxpayers are receiving, this can only be called a search for common sense. The charge that the foreign governments are subsidizing the transplants is unfounded and crazy on itís face. The inefficiencies of the Big Three have caused this to happen by being uncompetitive and inefficient, largely due to excessive total compensation and crushing work rules in their 2217 page UAW contract. Iíd much rather see American companies be selling the car as any patriot would, but the American consumer is telling us that it isnít happening. Unless the Big Three will agree to some huge meaningful concessions to get the cost in line with the transplants whose workers are thrilled and happy to have those great jobs, then it isnít going to happen and the Big Three are domed to the dust bin of history. What I have seen, by the UAW president and the UAW rank and file who still donít actually think there is a problem and that the taxpayer are going to come thru and keep there gold plated medical care premiums at $21/month. It might happen once or maybe even twice, but soon, the pressure of the American taxpayer is going to force some common sense to be in play. Americans will buy cars and Americans will make cars in plants in America, but the notion that America will continue to pay for all of these luxurious benefits to people who retired 15 years too early isnít going to continue. Anybody and I mean anybody critically looking at the facts from all sides will see this. I would hope that the UAW folks would look at the facts and not just spout back the union line that is full of misstatements and wishful thinking. Blind loyalty to any organization is not a good thing. I fear that many people are going to be very surprised as this train goes off the cliff. I know the UAW president doesnít have a clue. Anybody complaining about the stock holders and their dividends sure hasnít bothered to notice that the Big Three stocks are selling at 1950ís prices and if all common stockers were sold, it would bring in about 11 billion dollars to a company with outstanding debts of $51 billion and legacy costs outstanding of between $60 and $100 billion. Big Three stock holders have taken it in the shorts and unfortunately unless huge (40% range) in total compensation concessions are made by the UAW, the workers will also be taking it in the proverbial shorts also. Problem is they just donít think it will happen. They are in for a huge surprise and it is just around the corner. As one talking head put it, if you are selling lemonade for $1.00 and your lemons and sugar are costing you $1.50 you canít last and that is just what is happening and all the posturing and name calling wonít change that. You canít sell it for anymore because your competition is selling it and making lots of money at $1.00. Excessive total compensating and antiquated antiquate work rules must go. It can happen thru the UAW and the companies cooperation or through a bankruptcy judge, but the taxpayer wonít be making up the difference for long. Wonít continue.
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Old 12-14-2008, 10:33 AM   #207
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Let me just say that I own many autos, both foreign and domestic. What I find interesting is that GM and Ford try to avoid any responsiblity with problems that pop up in their autos..example...The C5 Corvette has numerous problems that have been around since the start of that model (1997-2004) One problem is the infamous steering column lock. You start up your car and start to drive off and the steering locks up on you...GM has refused to address the problem fully, they come up with a fix and then the fix won't work...Then after the warranty runs out it becomes YOUR PROBLEM, not GM's. Then in 2001 GM had the problem with the top rings in the motor which allow oil to blow by resulting in about 300 miles to a qt. of oil. GM tryed their best to get out of that repair...Of course Ford is no better, I have a 2006 F350 that has no power, I went and had it dyno and the horse power was way off, something like 206 hp vs advertised hp rating of 370ish, but because it didn't throw any codes Ford said that it was MY problem not thiers...Well, now I feel like these problems that the big 3 are having, are THEIR PROBLEM and not MINE, so don't come asking for my tax dollars cause as far as I'm concern you can go bankrupt.
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Old 12-14-2008, 11:20 AM   #208
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Lindsay, I'm saying both sides agreed to the contracts, the autoworkers negotiated what they thought was best for their members, the big 3 negotiated what it thought was best for it's share holders. They call these things contracts,they are supposed to be binding on all parties. Now after 80 years or so the rules are not working in this economy. You complain about the age at which they can retire, in my union you can retire at 55 with 30 years of service. There is a reason this was adopted most of the members that retired at 65 died within 2 years, the construction industry wore out their bodies. So we made contract concessions that allowed us to have this benefit. Should we now cancel it unilaterally? Contracts are give and take but in the end both parties agree. I agree things change but it's no coincidence that the foreign companies are all non union here, in Germany BMW and Mercedes are union. They came here on the promise of no unions! I've never said that unions can do no wrong but without them everyone's standard of living goes down.
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Old 12-14-2008, 12:36 PM   #209
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A contract with a bankrupt company is not worht the paper it is written on (in this case 2217 pages)l. This is the simple truth. This is where we are not. Many businesses and whole fields of work are long gone. My family was in the small drug store business for several generations, my wifeís family had a small private motel. These are almost all gone. One of our best friends was with a small bank for his whole career. At 56 they were bought out and didnít need him. Hardware stores, lumber yards, camera shops, small grocery stores, family service stations and on and on are the same story. The 30 year and out works only if the money is set aside into prepaid fully funded 401kís or IRAís. Saying that todayís vehicles pays for people who retired 25 years ago is not a workable business model. Wasnít back then and isnít now for sure. This is easy to see. People telling you it is are lying and they know it. Whoever made the decision back 30 years ago to do this was not too smart. They should have set the money aside back then as is done for almost all Americans workers. Many states have this as law for municipal employees. What about a teacher working in a town with a now closed steel mill? They still get their retirement because they money was an expense of those years they taught. The company and union bosses who made these decision these many years ago age probably dead now, but they had to know that it didnít work. They sold a bill of goods and now the piper will be paid. I is as simple as that. Blame whoever you wish, but this can not continue and it wonít. The notion that some workers die early would need to be proven to me for sure. In running my own business, I know I average about 65 to 80 hours a week plus and thought about it very waking hour. When I was a supervisor in a plant I worked harder and longer than my workers. Hard to believe that this didnít cut down on my health more than working on an assembly line. Each worker also had the option of saving their money out of each paycheck as the rest of us did and still do for retirement. I saved 10% of each of my checks for 40 years and have seen it go down by 35% recently. I donít call on the government to make it up. This is a harsh life and we can not expect the taxpayers to bail us out. There are 22 states that are ďRight to WorkĒ states and they have a huge advantage in attracting new industry. No state can promise that there will be no unions as you suggest. This is not permitted under the laws. If 50% want an election, there is one. The UAW had spent 10ís of millions trying to unionize the transplants with zero success and now that the transplant employees have seen what is happening to Big Three workers, the unions will never succeed now. The huge extra costs of the UAW and their 2217 page of contracts and crazy work rules make it impossible for the Big Three to survive in the modern world. If the UAW would understand this and try to forget the ways of the past that hurt the companies, then they would be allowing the companies to automate and to stop the work rules that give the transplants a big advantage. The employees of the transplants really like working there and frankly I am hurt that we canít have American owned plants could be survivors in todayís economy. It is up to the companies and unions. It is not for me who struggling to pay my own health insurance to pay health insurance for others. People shouldnít even ask me to.
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Old 12-14-2008, 01:19 PM   #210
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You are probably right that most people's early retirement is being taken away from them by high health insurance costs, seems like the trend for people to work until retirement age to keep health insurance active. The American Middle Class is a big part of the American Dream. To educate our children, have a home and good health and leave a better America than when we came here. Are we ready to start pruning the middle class of America? The craft of the Big3 were only building what some intelligent idiot in the upper offices had designed and wanted built. It is now obvious that what the Big3 were producing didnít sell. But the craft only builds them and people want to blame the working folks. Lets keep putting the middle class under our thumbs and think of only how much money each of us lost because we felt we could invest wisely in 401ís and IRAís. I know it is easier to blame than to accept our own failures. And yes construction folks tend to die young, I think it might be the night life and eating gas station and fast foods.
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