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Old 12-14-2008, 01:24 PM   #211
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Lindsay, our union has a 100% fully funded pension. We pay our early retirees an additional monthly stipend until age 62 equal to your full pension. In effect you receive double pension until 62 years of age. This is fully funded by union funds not the on going monthly employer payments. We also receive full medical. Currently there is no monthly copay for retirees but in all reality I don't believe that will continue forever given the massive increases in medical costs. But these are all benefits that were paid for upfront by giving up wages and planning for the future. My union negotiated this for us, without them would the contractors set this aside for our future, I think not. I've made a good living by improving my skills and becoming a construction superintendent on large commercial projects, but without the union leading the way there is no way my life would be as good as it has been. Are there things wrong with some unions, yes but on the whole those working union are better off. Those who have never work union need to look at unions with an open mind, there are many positive things. I don't disagree with you on the job bank issue but the Big 3 agreed to it, maybe they should have grown a pair back then and said no.
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Old 12-14-2008, 01:32 PM   #212
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by book2roadtrash:
You are probably right that most people's early retirement is being taken away from them by high health insurance costs, seems like the trend for people to work until retirement age to keep health insurance active. The American Middle Class is a big part of the American Dream. To educate our children, have a home and good health and leave a better America than when we came here. Are we ready to start pruning the middle class of America? The craft of the Big3 were only building what some intelligent idiot in the upper offices had designed and wanted built. It is now obvious that what the Big3 were producing didn’t sell. But the craft only builds them and people want to blame the working folks. Lets keep putting the middle class under our thumbs and think of only how much money each of us lost because we felt we could invest wisely in 401’s and IRA’s. I know it is easier to blame than to accept our own failures. And yes construction folks tend to die young, I think it might be the night life and eating gas station and fast foods. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Believe me the construction folks I know give up the night life pretty young because it's tough to burn the candle from both ends. And they brown bag because you can't get out to eat in a half hour break.
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Old 12-14-2008, 01:59 PM   #213
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The UAW has a partially funded full retirement after 30 years or down to 51 year old. Figuring n average death of 75 years that is 24 years for the retirement and 14 years until Medicare and then Part B and part D can run upwards of $400/ for a couple. Normal retirees at 65 is only 10 years. There in lays the problem. This all has to come from today’s cars which averages about $2,500 per car back when they were averaging 16 millions a year. Now it is 10.5 million and going down. Normal retiree at 65 or 66 has only the part B and D Medicare that they pay themselves. They have to pay their own retirement from 401k’s or IRA’s that were sometimes matched by the company and given tax breaks. When you say full funded by the union funds, I strongly think that the companies are supplying the monies to the union as part of the contract and the companies are in turn adding to the cost of the construction and the eventual owner of the building ends up paying for it. Wouldn’t really think of this as union money, as they just process it and handle it for a fee. The employer is the only one bringing in money to the table and the union money can come only from them. They just add it on to the price of the building. Thinking of this as union money does a disservice to the company. One video I saw of a UAW plant, about ½ of the employees were wearing UAW hats and t-shirts where in the Honda plant, most of the employees were wearing Honda hats and t-shirts. We have lots of Big Three retirees in my state and they all think they are getting their retirements and health care from the UAW and don’t make the mental leap that buyers of today’s cars are paying for it and they see the problem. There is also a long history of theft from union retirement funds (Jimmy Hoffa and bunch). I’d much rather have a 401k under my own direction than rely of others. Next time the UAW president gets on TV, look at the guys in the background and see if you’d like them handling your money.


On the job bank the Big Three have been trying to get rid of it for years and only this last week the UAW agreed to “suspend” it. To me it is very hard to blame the “Job Bank” on the companies except they agreed to it as these other massive benefits in order to stop strikes. As far as what style of cars produced, the consumers decide this and ot the companies. People wanted SUV’s and they were made, not the other way around. If the government makes the Big Three build 1200 pound puddle jumpers, then they are not going to sell unless the consumers want them.
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Old 12-14-2008, 02:42 PM   #214
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Forum rules, rightly, preclude my commenting on unions other to say the histrionics in this are ridiculous.

Bankruptcy, ch. 11, would provide for restructuring contracts and bring parity with the other auto manufacturers.

The major benefit would be to eliminate people being paid 95% wages when not working. I.E. featherbedding. That is what killed the rail roads.

I can understand the uneasiness of those on easy street but I don't have such a cushy job and my retirement funds have gone down by half in the last year.
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Old 12-14-2008, 05:01 PM   #215
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lindsay Richards:
The UAW has a partially funded full retirement after 30 years or down to 51 year old. Figuring n average death of 75 years that is 24 years for the retirement and 14 years until Medicare and then Part B and part D can run upwards of $400/ for a couple. Normal retirees at 65 is only 10 years. There in lays the problem. This all has to come from today’s cars which averages about $2,500 per car back when they were averaging 16 millions a year. Now it is 10.5 million and going down. Normal retiree at 65 or 66 has only the part B and D Medicare that they pay themselves. They have to pay their own retirement from 401k’s or IRA’s that were sometimes matched by the company and given tax breaks. When you say full funded by the union funds, I strongly think that the companies are supplying the monies to the union as part of the contract and the companies are in turn adding to the cost of the construction and the eventual owner of the building ends up paying for it. Wouldn’t really think of this as union money, as they just process it and handle it for a fee. The employer is the only one bringing in money to the table and the union money can come only from them. They just add it on to the price of the building. Thinking of this as union money does a disservice to the company. One video I saw of a UAW plant, about ½ of the employees were wearing UAW hats and t-shirts where in the Honda plant, most of the employees were wearing Honda hats and t-shirts. We have lots of Big Three retirees in my state and they all think they are getting their retirements and health care from the UAW and don’t make the mental leap that buyers of today’s cars are paying for it and they see the problem. There is also a long history of theft from union retirement funds (Jimmy Hoffa and bunch). I’d much rather have a 401k under my own direction than rely of others. Next time the UAW president gets on TV, look at the guys in the background and see if you’d like them handling your money.


On the job bank the Big Three have been trying to get rid of it for years and only this last week the UAW agreed to “suspend” it. To me it is very hard to blame the “Job Bank” on the companies except they agreed to it as these other massive benefits in order to stop strikes. As far as what style of cars produced, the consumers decide this and ot the companies. People wanted SUV’s and they were made, not the other way around. If the government makes the Big Three build 1200 pound puddle jumpers, then they are not going to sell unless the consumers want them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lindsay, I don't understand the venom you feel towards the unions, but making statements that are false as fact is wrong. When a contract is negotiated there are a certain dollar amount settled upon. At that point the union members decide how the funds will be allocated between wages, health care,pension and 401 to name a few, these decisions are made based on many factors. The contractors at that point have no say as to how the funds are spent. Our union many years ago decided to put the money in the pension,401 and health care, as a result we have the funds available to take care of ourselves in old age. 100% fully funded! Now I don't understand why you believe it's the contractors money, they agreed on a monetary settlement over the years, we wisely invested our money and we reap the benefits, I thought that was the American way. Some unions have chosen to let the business owner control their retirement and health care, that's proven to be a bad way to handle things as the first thing that goes when there is a bankruptcy are pensions and health care.
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Old 12-14-2008, 05:16 PM   #216
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Let's back off here and take a deep breath as this is turning into an union vs. non-union battle. Both sides have valid points and a lot of feelings for their side.

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Old 12-14-2008, 05:33 PM   #217
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Can’t understand how anybody could say I have venom for the unions. Trying to demonize people who disagree with the bailout of the UAW isn’t working as a large percentage of the American people agree that they do not want their taxes to go to pay for these early retirements and healthcare for the folks retiring so early. My problem is the UAW wants me to pay for their retirement and health care via my taxes. My point was on the money, was that it doesn’t come from the union, it comes from the builders of the buildings and they charge the owners of the buildings. Unions do not bring money to the table. The receive money from the contractors probably based on hourly rates actually worked. This is pretty simple. Just like in the UAW, all the money comes from the people who buy the vehicles. Kind of scares me when people say their health care is fully funded, because I think that this is impossible in today’s healthcare system with the large escalations in cost here. Almost all over the nation, construction is down. In my state, it is way, way down and this has to mean less and less money from the building owners to the contractors and to the unions for pension funds and healthcare. Think this through and I think you will have to agree. A 401k controlled by the individual is the best way save for retirement. The stock market (when pension funds reside) is way down, the money coming in from the purchasers of building has to be way down. I can not imagine that the pension funds for construction workers is in funding when this is not true for almost nobody else.

I would like for somebody to please give me the logic of why struggling taxpayer should be giving their hard earned tax dollars to pay early retired healthcare and pensions. Make me understand this and then I will be for the bailouts.
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Old 12-14-2008, 05:47 PM   #218
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OK. I certainly agree. Notifications off now.
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Old 12-14-2008, 06:06 PM   #219
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TXiceman:
Let's back off here and take a deep breath as this is turning into an union vs. non-union battle. Both sides have valid points and a lot of feelings for their side.

Ken </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Enough said
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Old 12-14-2008, 06:13 PM   #220
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Lindsay, I apologize if you feel as though I was demonizing in any way. I don't feel as though the UAW is correct in all of their dealings. Just don't feel it's fair to take it out on the retired members, they played by the rules as they were, to take away pensions or health care that was contracted for over many years just strikes me as wrong. These are my last words on the subject. unless I think of something else LOL

Reread your last post I though the capitalist society works by selling something (my labor) for the going rate. I'm not sure how you made a living but the only thing I had to sell was my labor. Once the contractor pays for my labor it's my money. I know you can't believe it but my pension is 100% fully funded we invest mostly in bonds, we have enough income to cover our outgo. As I said in a previous post there is no copay on the health care but I expect that will change. I don't understand why you think a union can't work in the best interest of its members. One more thing my union was one of the first in the nation to institute a 401 in addition to our pension. (Lucky me I got out of the market near the top an went in money markets) Not all are like the old Hoffa days.
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Old 12-14-2008, 07:22 PM   #221
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Let's give it a rest. You go back to your 39 ft DP and I'll go back to my 33 ft gasser.
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Old 12-14-2008, 08:45 PM   #222
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Back to the bankrupt auto companies; My nephew is a supervisor in a small parts factory in SE Indiana. We were talking about the problems of the D3 and he said that the factory that he was at made parts for GM [65%] & John Deere [35%]. If GM goes thru bankruptsy the shop will probably shut down for good because of the problems of getting paid for the parts. If they do shut down John Deere will have to find another supplier for the parts and will also have "down time" from lack of parts. This is only a small part of the ramification of One of the automakers going bankrupt. Let's hope the government will LOAN the D3 the money to remain solvent untill the economy gets back to near normal and then they can pay the loan back. Indiana Journey
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Old 12-15-2008, 03:56 AM   #223
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Hey TXiceman (moderator): PLEASE be careful and don't squelch the on going discussion prematurely....it's JUST beginning to get to the area of common ground...not quite there yet, but gettin close. The discussion has been getting GREAT....and no one has attacked anyone else. The posts reflecting "union vs. non-union" sentiments, NEED to be permitted since it's ONE major hurdle where folks need to adjust thinking and gain understanding and tolerance. It's KEY to making THIS THREAD one of the BEST iRV2 has ever had. AND...it seems the posters here know how to state their various points WITHOUT ATTACKING fellow posters!! I used to think (until reflecting on comments in this thread) that unions were bad and only gained things through threats, bullying, and intimidation. I now think that maybe they HAD TO in order to overcome greedy manipulative, clever managers and business owners. At the same time I don't believe unions care a twit about how tough it is for what they negatively call "BIG BUSINESS" to start up, run and become successful. Hence my comment near the beginning of this thread about having unions OWN, OPERATE, and MANAGE the business. I wasn't being "cute", but I seriously wonder what unions would do, and/or HOW they would proceed to start their own....say....automobile manufacturing company that would and could compete with other similar companies around the globe. I was kinda blown off by someone saying in effect ....it wasn't the union's job to run the company....and left it at that! BUT SERIOUSLY, with the experience, expertise and knowledge available within existing union organizations, couldn't such an organization do a good job of starting up or buying up an existing company and making GOOD cars???? Union workers MUST have some good ideas about how they would start up and/or manage such an enterprise. Steve
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Old 12-15-2008, 06:25 AM   #224
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chickadee:
Hey TXiceman (moderator): PLEASE be careful and don't squelch the on going discussion prematurely....it's JUST beginning to get to the area of common ground...not quite there yet, but gettin close. The discussion has been getting GREAT....and no one has attacked anyone else. The posts reflecting "union vs. non-union" sentiments, NEED to be permitted since it's ONE major hurdle where folks need to adjust thinking and gain understanding and tolerance. It's KEY to making THIS THREAD one of the BEST iRV2 has ever had. AND...it seems the posters here know how to state their various points WITHOUT ATTACKING fellow posters!! I used to think (until reflecting on comments in this thread) that unions were bad and only gained things through threats, bullying, and intimidation. I now think that maybe they HAD TO in order to overcome greedy manipulative, clever managers and business owners. At the same time I don't believe unions care a twit about how tough it is for what they negatively call "BIG BUSINESS" to start up, run and become successful. Hence my comment near the beginning of this thread about having unions OWN, OPERATE, and MANAGE the business. I wasn't being "cute", but I seriously wonder what unions would do, and/or HOW they would proceed to start their own....say....automobile manufacturing company that would and could compete with other similar companies around the globe. I was kinda blown off by someone saying in effect ....it wasn't the union's job to run the company....and left it at that! BUT SERIOUSLY, with the experience, expertise and knowledge available within existing union organizations, couldn't such an organization do a good job of starting up or buying up an existing company and making GOOD cars???? Union workers MUST have some good ideas about how they would start up and/or manage such an enterprise. Steve </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

While there is common ground they are experts in different areas. In the Philadelphia area several retail unions have tried purchasing and running some supermarket. For the most part without success, primarily because the members didn't realize what it takes to run a business. They were unable to see things from the owners perspective, just the workers. They failed in short order because there were no checks and balances. You need both parties to knpw their part and do it.
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