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Old 12-16-2008, 03:05 PM   #253
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330+150=480 pretty close
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Old 12-16-2008, 03:47 PM   #254
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I heard Mr. Knox on the radio today. He sounded like a regular, hard working guy. Thought I'd post it here with presumed permission as this letter is being emailed throughout the world. His response is to Clark's letter to GM employees.

Dear Employee,

Next week, Congress and the current Administration will determine whether to provide immediate support to the domestic auto industry to help it through one of the most difficult economic times in our nation's history. Your elected officials must hear from all of us now on why this support is critical to our continuing the progress we began prior to the global financial crisis.....................As an employee, you have a lot at stake and continue to be one of our most effective and passionate voices. I know GM can count on you to have your voice heard.

Thank you for your urgent action and ongoing support.

Troy Clarke
President
General Motors North America



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~

From Gregory Knox,

In response to your request to call legislators and ask for a bailout for the United States automakers please consider the following, and please also pass this onto Troy Clark, the president of General Motors North America for me.

You are both infected with the same entitlement mentality that has bred like cancerous germs in UAW halls for the last countless decades, and whose plague is now sweeping the nation, awaiting our new "messiah" to wave his magical wand and make all our problems go away, while at the same time allowing our once great nation to keep "living the dream".

The dream is over!

The dream that we can ignore the consumer for years while management myopically focuses on its personal rewards packages at the same time that our factories have been filled with the worlds most overpaid, arrogant, ignorant and laziest entitlement minded "laborers" without paying the price for these atrocities and that still the masses will line up to buy our products

Don't tell me I'm wrong. Don't accuse me of not knowing of what I speak. I have called on Ford,GM ,Chrysler,TRW,Delphi,Kelsey Hayes, American Axle and countless other automotive OEM's and Tier ones for 3 decades now throughout the Midwest and what I've seen over the years in these union shops can only be described as disgusting.

Mr Clark, the president of General Motors, states:

There is widespread sentiment in this country, our government and especially in the media that the current crisis is completely the result of bad management. It is not.

You're right, it's not JUST management, how about the electricians who walk around the plants like lords in feudal times, making people wait on them for countless hours while they drag *** so they can come in on the weekend and make double and triple time for a job they easily could have done within their normal 40 hour week

How about the line workers who threaten newbies with all kinds of scare tactics for putting out too many parts on a shift and for being too productive (mustn't expose the lazy bums who have been getting overpaid for decades for their horrific underproduction, must we?!?) Do you really not know about this stuff?!?

How about this great sentiment abridged from Mr. Clarke's sad plea:

over the last few years we have closed the quality and efficiency gaps with our competitors.

What the h*ll has Detroit been doing for the last 40 years?!?

Did we really JUST wake up to the gaps in quality and efficiency between us and them?

The K car vs. the Accord?

The Pinto vs. the Civic?!?

Do I need to go on?

We are living through the inevitable outcome of the actions of the United States auto industry for decades.

Time to pay for your sins, Detroit .

I attended an economic summit last week where a brilliant economist, Alan Beaulieu surprised the crowd when he said he would not have given the banks a penny of "bailout money". Yes, he said, this would cause short term problems, but despite what people like George Bush and Troy Clark would have us believe, the sun would in fact rise the next day and something else would happen. Where there had been greedy and sloppy banks, new efficient ones would pop up. That is how a free market system works. It does work if we would let it work!

But for some reason we are now deciding that the rest of the world is right and that capitalism doesn't work; that we need the government to step in and "save us". Save us, hell we're nationalizing and unfortunately too many of this once fine nation's citizens don't even have a clue that this is what's really happening but they sure can tell you the stats on their favorite sports teams yeah THAT'S important.

Does it occur to ANYONE that the "competition" has been producing vehicles, EXTREMELY PROFITABLY, for decades now in this country?...

How can that be???

Let's see - -

Fuel efficient -

Listening to customers -

Investing in the proper tooling and automation for the long haul -

Not being too complacent or arrogant to listen to Dr W Edwards Deming 4 decades ago -

Ever increased productivity through quality, lean and six sigma plans -

Treating vendors like strategic partners, rather than like "the enemy" -

Efficient front and back offices -

Non union environment -

Again, I could go on and on, but I really wouldn't be telling anyone anything they really don't already know in their hearts

I have six children, so I am not unfamiliar with the concept of wanting someone to bail you out of a mess that you have gotten yourself into. My children do this on a weekly, if not daily basis, as I did at their age. I do for them what my parents did for me (one of their greatest gifts, by the way). I make them stand on their own two feet and accept the consequences of their action and work them through.

Radical concept, huh?

Am I there for them in the wings? Of course but only until such time as they need to be fully on their own as adults

I don't want to oversimplify a complex situation, but there certainly are unmistakable parallels here between the proper role of parenting and government.

Detroit and the United States need to pay for their sins.

Bad news people, it's coming whether we like it or not.

The newly elected Messiah really doesn't have a magic wand big enough to "make it all go away" I laughed as I heard ***** "reeling it back in" almost immediately after the vote count was tallied "we might not do it in a year or in four"! Where was that kind of talk when he was RUNNING for the office

Stop trying to put off the inevitable!

That house in Florida really isn't worth $750,000!

People who jump across a border really don't deserve free health care benefits!

That job driving that forklift for the big 3 really isn't worth $85,000 a year!

That couple whose combined income is less than $50,000 really shouldn't be living in that $485,000 home!

Let the market correct itself people, it will. Yes it will be painful, but it's gonna be painful either way, and the bright side of my proposal is that on the other side of it is a nation that appreciates what is has and doesn't live beyond its means and gets back to basics and redevelops the work ethic that made it the greatest nation in the history of the world and probably turns back to God.

Sorry, don't cut my head off. I'm just the messenger sharing with you the "bad news"

Gregory J Knox

President

Knox Machinery, Inc.

Franklin , Ohio 45005
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Old 12-16-2008, 04:40 PM   #255
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bulson has spent $310 billion of the $700 billion autorized in TARP and intends to leave the second half to the new president. This leave s$40 billion left between now and 01/20/09 I personally wouldn't have bailed out anybody and let the free market work, but they forgot to ask me. Please post the link about the Philly. PA using current funds to supply healthcare and retirement funds for current retirees.
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Old 12-16-2008, 05:35 PM   #256
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Lindsay, didn't say anything about health care and my son in-law is a Philadelphia Firefighter that's where the knowledge comes from. I'm sorry the last figure I heard on the tarp fund was 330 I could be wrong as I don't recall where I read it. By the way I wasn't asked about the bailout either, I doubt I would have agreed on wall street, but I'm behind the bailout of main street.
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Old 12-16-2008, 05:40 PM   #257
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Can't address all incorrect statements so will settle for these.

"30 years and out" early retirement under UAW contracts with the former "Big Three" entitles the retiree to recieve the full early retirement payment only until said retiree becomes eligible for Social Security Retirement Benefits. AFTER THAT DATE THE COMPANY MONTHLY RETIREMENT PAYMENT IS REDUCED BY THE AMOUNT OF THE MONTHLY SS BENEFIT PAYMENT.

Payments for layoff are figured as follows: Base is: AFTER TAX WEEKLY 40 HR. PAY minus ALL TAXES ON REMAINDER = WEEKLY BENEFIT. Not quite what is published by the RASH WINDBAG types, eh?

Way too much incorrect info. being broadcast out there, including, but not limited to, hourly wage scales. Southern Senators definitely have a dog in this fight and are trying to tip the scales with outright lies. They are acting totally from self interest and without a shred of patriotism!

The truth is hourly wages are within $1.00/hr or so, work across skill lines is demanded, resulting in dangerous practices such as pipefitters attempting to do electrical work and the reverse,(known as "General Maintenance). Legacy costs make up the major differential in total labor costs due to the shorter lifetime of the import plants.

Many parts used in US assembled foreign nameplate vehicles are imported from offshore.

Profits from foreign nameplate units go back to Korea, Japan, Germany, etc.

In closing I would like to inquire why no one seems incensed enough to even mention the early retirement benefits garnered by the PEACETIME military retirees with their LIFETIME taxpayer paid health care; not to mention the double & triple dippers?

And, to attempt to forstall the flames, I have five years active duty plus a couple more inactive in US Military Service!
Cordialy, Jim
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Old 12-16-2008, 05:51 PM   #258
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gmachine:
Can't address all incorrect statements so will settle for these.

"30 years and out" early retirement under UAW contracts with the former "Big Three" entitles the retiree to recieve the full early retirement payment only until said retiree becomes eligible for Social Security Retirement Benefits. AFTER THAT DATE THE COMPANY MONTHLY RETIREMENT PAYMENT IS REDUCED BY THE AMOUNT OF THE MONTHLY SS BENEFIT PAYMENT.

Payments for layoff are figured as follows: Base is: AFTER TAX WEEKLY 40 HR. PAY minus ALL TAXES ON REMAINDER = WEEKLY BENEFIT. Not quite what is published by the RASH WINDBAG types, eh?

Way too much incorrect info. being broadcast out there, including, but not limited to, hourly wage scales. Southern Senators definitely have a dog in this fight and are trying to tip the scales with outright lies. They are acting totally from self interest and without a shred of patriotism!

The truth is hourly wages are within $1.00/hr or so, work across skill lines is demanded, resulting in dangerous practices such as pipefitters attempting to do electrical work and the reverse,(known as "General Maintenance). Legacy costs make up the major differential in total labor costs due to the shorter lifetime of the import plants.

Many parts used in US assembled foreign nameplate vehicles are imported from offshore.

Profits from foreign nameplate units go back to Korea, Japan, Germany, etc.

In closing I would like to inquire why no one seems incensed enough to even mention the early retirement benefits garnered by the PEACETIME military retirees with their LIFETIME taxpayer paid health care; not to mention the double & triple dippers?

And, to attempt to forstall the flames, I have five years active duty plus a couple more inactive in US Military Service!
Cordialy, Jim </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jim, other than the Military pension which in this age one can never call them a peacetime soldier again. When someone volunteers they didn't know the future. I would like to thank you for coming forward with some real numbers. As they say numbers don't lie but liars can twist the numbers.
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Old 12-16-2008, 06:12 PM   #259
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Several important facts. The total compensation of the big is $73 per hour of employee work. This includes the wages, benefits and retirement. The total compensation of the transplants average is $48/hour of employee hours worked. These facts are from the Univ of MI and are documented earlier in this thread. This is an unsustainable business model and has brought the big three to itís knees for decades. Continuing this can not work. Once Again. It isnít about wages, it is about TOTAL COMPENSATION (wage make up about a third). The big three have a legacy cost of between $60 and $100 billion dollars. The transplants have a total legacy cost of zero and are not generating any. Doesnít matter about the social security and the rest. The big three continue to dig a deep hole every day and are asking the taxpayers to give them money to keep operating. With a total stock value of less than $11 billion and outstanding debs of $51 billion and the massive promised, but undeliverable retirement and healthcare ($60 to $100 billion). You guys keep wanting the past to continue and it canít. It is as simple as that. Itís over. The goose that laid the golden egg is dead. Itís over. The free market to me works. There is a market for cars in America and many if not most of them will be made in America. The Americans making cheaper (and the consumers save better value) cars prove to me that America and Americans can be very successful in the car business. We just canít do it at $73/hour total compensation. Canít happen. It puts a $2,500 penality on each car. What is needed is a reorganization and that is what bankruptcy will do to try and get the total compensation down to a level where the companies can survive. They canít and wonít without changing these things. They will go under (liquidation) and everybody will be hurt. Reorganization is the best way for the country and for the workers. Clinging to the old ways that have proven to be a failure will only result in continued failure and if taxpayers pay the total compensation now, then will be doing it again in a few months and again and again. When itís broken, you have to fix what is wrong and then try again. Looking on the car sticker will tell you the % of foreign made parts and you might be suprised as to has more.

What is the link on the Philly retirement not being funded. This is illegal in many states and Iíd need to actually see this. You said it was in the budget. What is the link. I keep trying to give up this thread. It is a waste of electrons. You guys are always going to want the taxpayer to pay these gold plated benefits the donít have themselves and I will never think it is a good idea.
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Old 12-16-2008, 07:12 PM   #260
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Lindsay, good luck in all life offers
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Old 12-16-2008, 07:27 PM   #261
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Lindsay, good luck in all life offers </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank You. Do you ever get back down to Florida. I see you have been to Key West. What state is your home base. Is that your daughter standing next to you in the picture on your blog? Hey, I was just kidding.
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Old 12-17-2008, 06:38 AM   #262
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lindsay Richards:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Lindsay, good luck in all life offers </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank You. Do you ever get back down to Florida. I see you have been to Key West. What state is your home base. Is that your daughter standing next to you in the picture on your blog? Hey, I was just kidding. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This will be our third trip to FL in the RV, we see family in Port St Lucie , then we will head to FT Myers for a month. Then we will meander north for a month or so. By the way that's my Mom looks great for 87
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Old 12-17-2008, 07:15 AM   #263
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We used to live in Fort Pierce which is very close to Port St. Lucie and I was born and raised in Fort Myers and go there on a regular basis. It is a perfect example of what has happened to "old Florida". My dad move to Fort Myers in 1920 when the population of the county was 18,000. Now it is pushing 600,000. Very sad to see. All those carpenters building the houses has ruined it.
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Old 12-17-2008, 07:25 AM   #264
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My favorite CG in FL is Geiger Key Marina, it's what Old Florida was like, layed back, fish in front of your RV. Keep the Kayak tied up in front, listen to the music from the bar. Totally relaxed Jimmy Buffet would be proud! Port St Lucie is OK by way too busy for me. Key West is the best People watching venue on Earth.
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Old 12-17-2008, 07:40 AM   #265
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Florida has some great state parks also. I don't go to Key West because lots of the girls don't wear tops and my wife keeps jabing me in the ribs. Passport America has over 200 member parks in Florida. There are manay old Florida parks. In Fort Myers, try the Red Coconut on the beach. Been there forever.
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Old 12-17-2008, 08:12 AM   #266
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by gmachine:


In closing I would like to inquire why no one seems incensed enough to even mention the early retirement benefits garnered by the PEACETIME military retirees with their LIFETIME taxpayer paid health care; not to mention the double & triple dippers?


Do you suppose no one seems incensed over military retirement benefits, because military personnell were never paid $73 per hour for thier service? Really an poor analogy. IMHO-- of course.
And I too am a veteran.
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