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Old 11-12-2008, 02:08 PM   #15
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Rod, I totally agree with your reply. The US auto makers have been held hostage for more, more, more. As a smalll business owner myself with 25 employees, you cannot afford to offer lifetime retirement benefits to your workers. It will eventually put you out of business, When the US ato workers are making between $70.00-$80.00 per hour for wages and benifits and the Japaneese auto workers are making around $35.00 - $40.00 per hour with benefits, something is dead wrong. I say to them, claim bankruptcy and start over. We have already bailed out Chrysler once, why again? The US auto makers just don't get it, let them get some responsible management. You can't sell their cars becaus their labor rate makes them unafordable and unable to compet with the competition. It is the unions that are busting them! The workers are not skilled workers,but the unions have convinced the US auto makers ( and held them hostage) that they are!
I am glad that Florida is a right to work state and I don't have to deal with the unions. My workers are equal to or make more money and benefits than any union shop in town. The good thing is I am not held hostage by the unions!
I am all for the unions when we needed them, when there were sweat shops etc, but I think they have outlived ther time. I contribute along with my employees to a 401K retirement plan and their health insurance. I can't offer them lifetime benefits. it just isn't possible! What I can offer them is a great work environment with great benefits and to share the profits with them when we are profitable thanks to their help.
How about a bailout for my Company? No way, I am too low on the food chain!
I don't mean to offend anybody, and if I did, I apologize to you.

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Old 11-12-2008, 05:05 PM   #16
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Well, I guess I'm going to be in the minority here but one thing I see is that wages have not went up with costs. This means to me that I have less buying power which translates to less spendable income. No wonder this economy is taking a dive. How can you have a growing economy when people can't afford to buy things? The costs have outrun the wages.

Now, as for wages and benefits, I do agree that the auto workers have a lot more than most of us, especially the benefits. However, most people out there making less than $25 an hour can't hardly make ends meet due to the costs today. There has to be some reorganizing of prices vs wages or this country is going to continue to have major problems. That's why I think this collapse has occurred. No flexable spendable income, no buying! I really think the petroleum industry (world wide) has the responsibility for all of this. Those prices caused everything to go up! Unless prices come down or wages go up there will be no quick fix. My nickles worth. Used to be two cents but ...!
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Old 11-12-2008, 06:12 PM   #17
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The Big Three bail out seems like a waste of taxpayers money to me. Why would a manufacture keep producing a product and over supply his demand? I do not now,. But the question I want to bring up is ,why dose management always blame the craft for their mismanagements? Unions did not break the Big Three, the people that manage them did not manage their business properly and are going to try to use this as a Union Busting tactic. We need to support our own economy and buy things made here.
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Old 11-13-2008, 03:47 AM   #18
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by book2roadtrash:
We need to support our own economy and buy things made here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The Toyota, Honda and Nissan manufacturing plants covered in my graph are located in the U.S., and their labor rate is 2/3 that of the Big 3. That's got to change, or the Big 3 cannot survive over the long term. Basic economic reality.

On Edit: To illustrate, both Ford and GM reported huge 3Q08 losses and are burning cash at the rate of $2+ billion per month! Toyota (the one I remember offhand) reported decreased earnings, but they're still profitable.

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Old 11-13-2008, 02:27 PM   #19
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Bob O: I fully agree with you. We all need to bombard our congressmen with our opinions. This auto bail out is nothing short of discrimination against all smaller business' that have to survive by making cuts. I think we need to all come together and find one of these televison lawyers to start a class action discrimination lawsuit!!
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Old 11-13-2008, 03:09 PM   #20
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If they want to support the auto industry, then kick out the bozos that ran it in the ground and nationalize it. They already proved that they don't know how to run anything. Do not let those yahoos play with our tax money. Push them over the side without a "golden" parachute. If they have not saved part of thier bloated salaries then they can go to work at McDonalds and learn what it is like to scrape by for a living.
Put a couple of Master Sargents in charge and run it like a car company instead of like a Wall Street stock price producer.
When the indians lost to the cowboys they elected new chiefs. They didn't fire all the indians.
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Old 11-13-2008, 05:21 PM   #21
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Rod,
I am so ready with you to start speaking out. We have cut everything we can cut at my business. We hope to hang on like all the other struggling small businesses out there right now. If the auto makers get a bailout, I want one too!
I agree that there has been mismanagement and GREED on their part and I agree with most of the posts above on this sore subject.
Check out the Dow Jones graph for the last ten years (Google it)for Ford stock. It looks like a big slide from a high around $35.00+ per share to where they are today at $1.90. They didn't do this alone, they got help from the union who threatened them evrytime the contract came up for renewal. Give us what we want OR we shut you down with a strike! Again,NO COMPANY can pay lifetime benefits and pay their employees double plus the average pay for their line of work compared with the Japaneese automakers salary and be somewhat competetive and survive! I also agree with the above posts that some jobs haven't kept up with the cost of living and are underpaid so people can live above the poverety line, BUT the US automakers are not one of them. They have also ignored the outlook on the changing tide in America,and they keep producing big vehicles with big apetites for fuel. Just my opinion and two cents
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Old 11-13-2008, 07:14 PM   #22
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The auto industry is the backbone of American manufacturing The failure of even one U.S. automaker would mean the loss of millions of jobs and cost our economy hundreds of billions of dollars. It's also about thousands of car dealerships, which are anchor businesses in cities and towns across America, It's about thousands of small and medium-sized businesses -- employing millions of workers -- who supply parts, logistics, research, engineering and other services to Chrysler, Ford and GM If a major domestic auto company were to fail, a significant number of supplier companies would also be in jeopardy. This would quickly affect all companies that produce autos in the U.S. -- including Toyota, Honda and Nissan -- because many of these firms buy parts and services from the same group of suppliers. Like I said earlier we have to support America! Keep on buying cheap clothes at the super centers that have a sweat shop labor force in China. Keep on eating South American meats, fruit and vegetables. And the list can go on and on, A quote from Thomas Jefferson" a government big enough to give you all you want is big enough to take all you have."
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Old 11-13-2008, 07:30 PM   #23
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bob O:
They have also ignored the outlook on the changing tide in America,and they keep producing big vehicles with big appetites for fuel. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Bob, I can't disagree with that assessment. I recently visited my Chevy dealer to take a look at that new 2009 Traverse.....

Can I have a show of hands from those folks that want to continue buying $39,000 Chevies?

I thought a Traverse would be in line to replace the Equinox but this beast if anything is huge. I would think that the Trailblazer, Suburban, Tahoe all huge cars in their own right would fall from favor by now given that even truck sales are really slow, but Chevy continues to make BIG vehicles. Should they stop building large SUVs, not at all there is a need out there but let's get real. GM can't continue to build vehicles this size and expect to sell them off the lots like they're priced like Cobalts and Malibus.

I am excited about Dual-Hybrid technology and the Chevy Volt. In order for the Detroit auto makers to become profitable again they have to make vehicles that most people will want to buy.

No more stupid parachutes ... the company executives I believe are running the company into the ground. How about, "You're fired!" The Unions are not making it easy either. I have been a Union member practically all of my adult life and the Union was good for people in my profession however in reality one of the reasons that all of our vehicle manufacturing jobs were pushed off shore is evident, poor management and the cost of labor. Someone has gotta come to task with this.

Do we give them 50 Billion now and wait for them to go broke 2 years from now or do they really make a brilliant change for the better and turn the industry inside out? Given 50 Billion, do they fix the problem?

GM = $2.95 share
F = $1.90 share

YUK!
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Old 11-14-2008, 03:31 AM   #24
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HERE is a piece that's worth reading regarding this subject from this morning's Houston Chronicle.

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Old 11-14-2008, 04:42 AM   #25
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Rusty, That is a great article, thanks for sharing it. The writing has been on the wall for all of the big three US owned Automakers. Ford stock was close to $40.00 ten years ago, yesterday it was at $1.90. If you look at the ten year graph for Ford stock, it looks like a big downhill slide. If they can't fix themselves in ten years what makes people think a bailout will fix them. Poor Greedy Management and the unions have helped them to be where they are. Yes I also believe it will be a disaster for our already ailing economy to let them fail,So what do we do? Help them out or keep fueling a car that doesn't run? I don't have the answers. Just my two cents
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Old 11-14-2008, 03:35 PM   #26
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How many of you know a retiree of Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai or any of the "transplants" in the USA? None probably. How many of you know how much the governments of these manufactures subsidize these industries? None probably. As a retiree of one of the American auto companies I know firsthand that the foreign auto industries are subsidized by both their government and the state governments where they are located. Check to see how much is offered to them to locate in the states where they are located. It is your tax money going to them. You can give the Unions heck for their part in the wages and benefits but remember that they got nothing that the companies didn't give them in place of something given up by the workers. The Unions have represented the workers at the auto plants since the Thirties and are still needed. I worked 36 years in an auto plant and retired with good benefits. I also have been exposed to asbestos, freon, massive amounts of other carcinogens that the everyday worker never gets close to. My hearing is almost gone from exposure to the factory noise. Most of my joints[knees, hips,shoulder,wrists] are bad from the work which I preformed. The wages that I recieved when working were earned and my retirement and benefits are part of a legal contract that I signed when I retired. I, for one am not against the federal government stepping up and doing the right thing and helping the auto industry through this rough time. End of rant. Indiana Journey
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Old 11-15-2008, 03:26 AM   #27
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Ahhhh...So, if Unions had had ownership of these companies from...say...the beginning, then the negative things (economy, worker exposures, and poor quality) would NOT have happened? Hmmmm.
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Old 11-15-2008, 03:30 AM   #28
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The fact remains - a company competing in a global commodity market cannot survive with annual labor costs of $141,000 to $152,000 per hourly individual when the competition's costs are $93,000 per individual. The U.S. owned auto manufacturers are posting staggering quarterly losses and are burning through their cash at the rate of over $2 billion per month. Put quite frankly, that means that if nothing changes, a $10 billion loan might allow a manufacturer to survive 5 more months. Is that worth the investment? Unless the systemic problems are fixed, it's only throwing (my) good money after bad.

I've worked for my employer for 35 years and will be 61 years old next month. When I retire, I will get whatever is in my 401(k) - period. No defined benefit pension. No health insurance. Nothing else. Just a lump sum payout. That's the reality of the labor market in the United States today.

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