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Old 12-20-2008, 12:03 PM   #295
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Lindsay, you're right I am sensitive re: union vs Non union. I have seen so much bunk and out right lies regarding unions it gets the hair on the back of my neck standing up. I've been involved in union politics for 30 years, I've fought bad leadership and corruption and I will never fight for a bad union policy, but the anti union folks believe any union policy is bad. I just can't stand by let ill informed people make up facts as they go along. Are all unions good NO are all unions bad NO. I've got to stop now my BP is rising.
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Old 12-20-2008, 12:29 PM   #296
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Unions are good to help protect the workers from unethical companies, but they can go too far when the company is bullied into keeping unnecessary jobs. Unions in fields that see technology changes have to be able to adapt to the newer technology or you can see the union and the company going backwards.

One hard fact, is that when you automate jobs, there are more machines doing the work and fewer people. But there needs to be a highly qualified person to keep the machines running properly as well as program the machines.

America is falling behind the technology curve. In China, over 30% of the college graduates are science and engineering majors. The US is only graduating 5% of the graduates in engineering and sciences.

Like it was said...We have met the enemy and it is us.

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Old 12-20-2008, 01:35 PM   #297
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TXiceman:
Unions are good to help protect the workers from unethical companies, but they can go too far when the company is bullied into keeping unnecessary jobs. that's featherbedding and is definitely wrong Unions in fields that see technology changes have to be able to adapt to the newer technology or you can see the union and the company going backwards.

One hard fact, is that when you automate jobs, there are more machines doing the work and fewer people. But there needs to be a highly qualified person to keep the machines running properly as well as program the machines.

America is falling behind the technology curve. In China, over 30% of the college graduates are science and engineering majors. The US is only graduating 5% of the graduates in engineering and sciences.

Like it was said...We have met the enemy and it is us.

Ken </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ken I guess we agree on most of this
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Old 12-20-2008, 05:40 PM   #298
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The factory in Brasil was built for ford to supply cars to Brasil and export them to other countries. In Brasil it is required of the auto companies, by the government, to build the cars in Brasil to be able to sell them in Brasil. Imports are not allowed into the country without a very large tarif. This is what several people refer to as a "level playing field" for the American industries. The industries in Brasil are allowed to export many goods to the US with little or no tarif. Fair? I don't hardly think so! Indiana Journey
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Old 12-20-2008, 06:18 PM   #299
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Hondo, I understand the blood pressure thing, but when they needed 1000 Journeyman Lineman to put the power back on in Houston after Ike, they call on the Union. Where else can they get that many craftsmen at one time! Now that the lights are back on and Houston is back to normal the word union is a cuss word. Being Union is like being a prostitute! When they need us they wine and dine us and when they are done with us they do not want anything to do with us. Hondo, take care brother and have a Merry Christmas. Book2
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Old 12-20-2008, 06:21 PM   #300
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Brazil (the world’s largest exporter of orange juice) exports to the US over half of the orange juice now sold in the United states (the former world’s producer of orange juice). They are taxed the equivalent of 35 cents a gallon and the tax is just passed onto the American consumers of orange juice. The purpose of this tax is to protect the Florida orange juice growers. FL and LA sugar growers are also protected by a similar tax that makes the American raw sugar price at about 24 cents when the world sugar price is about 9 cents. America has a long history of taxing imports and it is strictly political. You might remember Clinton talking on the phone to a Florida sugar grower as a certain intern was under the desk. America’s hands are not clean on this subject. The reason the video was linked was to show that the modern auto making has progress well beyond the old work rules of the UAW and these work rules are holding back the Big Three. The transplants in the South are taking advantage of all technological and economic breakthroughs to produce a high quality low priced vehicle. The UAW is preventing these advantages from being utilized for the Big Three in America and these work rules are a part of the $73 to $44 difference in total compensation between the transplants and the UAW. If they want to persist in this type of activity, that’s between the Big Three and the UAW, but don’t expect me to pay for old inefficient methods through my tax dollars. Taxpayers must have at least a chance of getting paid back.
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Old 12-20-2008, 07:11 PM   #301
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by book2roadtrash:
Hondo, I understand the blood pressure thing, but when they needed 1000 Journeyman Lineman to put the power back on in Houston after Ike, they call on the Union. Where else can they get that many craftsmen at one time! Now that the lights are back on and Houston is back to normal the word union is a cuss word. Being Union is like being a prostitute! When they need us they wine and dine us and when they are done with us they do not want anything to do with us. Hondo, take care brother and have a Merry Christmas. Book2 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

All these things are true, I don't understand how someone without the benefit of a union thinks all the safety and work conditions they have came from. Possibly the benevolent companies that ship jobs overseas will step up and grant the 40hr workweek. Everything the working person has in the way of work standards and wages in this country they owe to the unions if you look deep enough.
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Old 12-20-2008, 07:57 PM   #302
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At the present time most of the engineers at Chrysler belong to the UAW. Why? Because they got tired of getting the "short end of the stick" Management were treated like royalty while the rest of the people were treated like dirt under their feet. Unions represent workers because people want to be treated with respect and dignity and be paid a fair wage for the work they do! The robots that are in the transplant factories are also in the D3 factories. The production of cars/trucks does not vary much at all between the domestic and the transplants. Indiana Journey
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Old 12-21-2008, 04:54 AM   #303
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Union participation in non governmental work has dropped from about 38% 35 years ago, to about 13% these days. There are many reasons stated for this and I have my own theory that I will keep to my self. I have worked as a supervisor in a plant with the Teamsters union representing the workers and it was not a pretty site (This was in the late 70’s in MI). The union did everything they could to purposely hurt the company and hurt production. This sounds bizarre, but is factual. I have also been through a successful union organizing drive and saw union thugery and intimidation that was shocking. My wife (RN) has also been involved in hospital unionization drive brought on by sloppy management. What I have seen lately by the big three has really been a shocker to me. The president of the UAW seems determined to run the business off the cliff. Pretty obvious that the industry is changing drastically and the UAW is clinging to the old ways in the 2217 page contract. It is obvious that Americans can make good cars as they do it with vey good jobs with the transplants who now make nearly 40 % of America’s cars and love their jobs and employers. If these old ways persist then the big three will die a very sad and painful death.
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Old 12-21-2008, 05:12 AM   #304
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Perhaps the fine taxpayers of this country should form a union, then demand that our elected leaders quit spending our tax dollars on such nonsense as "bailouts!"

They (our elected leaders) are just hocking our future, and that of our kids and grand kids, for our votes and the big contributions from those they bail out (with our money). No matter how you slice it, they get into office because of us . . . when will we learn?
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Old 12-21-2008, 06:41 AM   #305
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Lindsay, You're right about Union membership going down. The transplant companies have told their workers that if anyone even breathes a word about a Union, they will be fired and never see the inside of any of their shops. Intimidation? Yes! Federal crime? Yes! Punished? No! As long as the government is willing to look the other way the workers will continue to be used up and thrown to the curb by industries. The unionized industries have protected the workers because of the Union not because it is the right thing to do. As other people have said, not all Union people are good, not all management people are good, but most of all of them do give a good days work for a good days pay. The UAW president is doing his job, representing the workers to the best of his ability. The management is doing their job, representing the company to the best of their ability. Lets see if all of them can get the United States auto companies back on their feet. Indiana Journey
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Old 12-21-2008, 06:52 AM   #306
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lindsay Richards:
Union participation in non governmental work has dropped from about 38% 35 years ago, to about 13% these days. There are many reasons stated for this and I have my own theory that I will keep to my self. I have worked as a supervisor in a plant with the Teamsters union representing the workers and it was not a pretty site (This was in the late 70’s in MI). The union did everything they could to purposely hurt the company and hurt production. This sounds bizarre, but is factual. I have also been through a successful union organizing drive and saw union thugery and intimidation that was shocking. My wife (RN) has also been involved in hospital unionization drive brought on by sloppy management. What I have seen lately by the big three has really been a shocker to me. The president of the UAW seems determined to run the business off the cliff. Pretty obvious that the industry is changing drastically and the UAW is clinging to the old ways in the 2217 page contract. It is obvious that Americans can make good cars as they do it with vey good jobs with the transplants who now make nearly 40 % of America’s cars and love their jobs and employers. If these old ways persist then the big three will die a very sad and painful death. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lindsay, only folks who truly "KNOW" the facts are those directly involved. We all have opinions based on limited facts. Again we agree not all unions are good and honorable, I also have a problem with governmental unions as there is no counter balance. But in the private sector there is a counter balance, the Non Union workers. In construction the non union worker can thank us for their rate of pay and working standards. The Union shops must remain competitive to survive, they balance each other out. Without the non union worker the unions have too much power, they eventually price them selves out of the market. Like wise without the unions, the non union worker would have drastically reduced pay and benefits. You might be surprised that most union workers hold no animus towards the non union worker, not so for the non union contractor. I've worked as an estimator for a major general construction company, when bidding against non union contractors you see time after time where they come in slightly below the union shops, now this is strange as they pay the same for materials as union shops, their pay scale is 60% of union so where does the extra money go. Into the pockets of the non union owner. Now you could say he's taking the risk so he's entitled, but is he? He takes no more risk than the union shop so why is he entitled to 30% higher profit? He's not he's just skimming the cream and not passing any down to those who do the work.
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Old 12-21-2008, 07:04 AM   #307
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The transplant companies follow the same labor relations laws that every other company follows. The UAW has spent millions and millions trying to organza them and built union halls right next door. These efforts have been totally unsuccessful as the workers at the transplants are very satisfied and ther eare long waiting list. KIA is opening a new plant in South Ga and had 43,000 applications for 2,600 jobs. The transplant jobs with a $44/hour total compensation ae nearly twice the national average. They are considered to be great jobs. The notion that these workers need the UAW is totally foalse and the current trouble of the big three really reinforce that. The notion that the transplant workers are intimidated is totally false. They love working there and may towns have been saved by the transplants. These are considered to be great places to work and saying the workers are intimidated is just repeating the UAW line. What is intimidation is when you have worked your whole life in an industry that is rushing for the scrap heap and you see your union and management teams acting like they don’t hve a clue how to stop it. The more the president of the UAW gets up and says the things that thinking person knows will send these companies to the scrap heap of history, the more the transplant workers become against the UAW. They are killing the big Three along with some management that appears to have it’s head in the sand or some other dark place. Hopefully when the judge levels the playing field these companies or remnants can be saved. The reason union participations is plummeting like a rock is union bosses are not in tune with today’s worker and today‘s world. The UAW is a great example of this. Their membership has gone way down and the nonunionized workers building American cars are skyrocketing. The reasons are very clear, but the UAW bosses can’t see because of their heads been stuck up that dark place. (Where the sun don’t shine.) They will nevr get back on their feet until this huge burden is removed from their back. They can work together to do it, have a judge do it, or follow the bus of the cliff. Having the taxpayers subsidize the UAW forever won’t be happening.
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Old 12-21-2008, 07:38 AM   #308
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Mike let me throw this one at you. Saturn which is owned by GM started out where all the employees owned stock in Saturn NO UNION and thus worked for that previledge and that distinction. And personally I thought Saturns to be one fine vehicle and well made. And well into the green financially. Than in 2000, GM changed all that and took that previledge away adding additional vehicles and the unionized people to that line of vehicles. The Saturn line is now struggling like all the other lines to survive and the cars are just not as good as they used to be. And have been in the red since. What is wrong with that picture?
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