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Old 12-25-2008, 01:31 PM   #351
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And if it were NOT for the Unions we could all still be working in sweat shop conditions, seven days a week, 16 or more hours a day, with NO vacations, holidays (Like today)or any of the other things everyone takes for granted now................ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


The 88% of nongovernmental American workers not having a union preserntly having all these things. Competation bween companies for employees works well too. We have employer sanctions being enforced by the government to stop these decades old practices. The emloyees of the 12 foreign firms now making autos in the US are doing well (Until the current hopefully shot term economic slow down)and their kids can enjoy Christmas this year knowing Mommie and Daddie will have a job next year. The UAW has lost over 50 of it's workers in the last two decades and the trend is fixing to get a lots worse. The 12 foreign firms employing many Americans are investing billions and billions in Americans making and buying their cars and trucks in the future. The big three are holding on with the huge burdens placed upon them with the $73/hour total compensation. He big three could be saved it the UAW would be willing to give up some of the gold plated healtcare and other benifits. They are going to ride this horse right over the cliff. Fortunately there will be other Americans to seize the opportunities presented by the UAW's and executives run them into the ground. The American auto industry will not die, it will just be put into the hands of people who will love and foster it rather than raping it.
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Old 12-25-2008, 02:02 PM   #352
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Lee & Lindsay, I'm sorry you fellows had such bad union experiences that they have turned you against them for life. If you look around most of the benefits US workers have today are a direct result of Union participation in the work place. Sorry you can't see the benefit to the worker.
PS: you certainly could be correct about some problems but on the whole they are good for the working person.
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Old 12-25-2008, 02:29 PM   #353
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Through out this thread, I have been trying to limit it to the bailout of the UAW and the big three. Every time we get of on something else, it makes somebody mad. I am wanting to continue talking about the big three and the UAW. I did notice the VIN number on Sanata’s sleigh last night and it was actually made by a transplant auto company. This is very telling for the big here. Their continued downhill spiral continues. Very bad for the employees and retirees. Better to get part of a cookie now than no cookie a little later. President of the UAW is holding out for all of the cookie paid for by hard working Americans paying for their early retired counterparts. Very unfair.
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Old 12-26-2008, 06:40 AM   #354
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MtManLee, The Saturn Project was announced by Gm Nov. 3, 1983. The historic labor agreement for Saturn was signed by GM & the UAW July 26, 1985, The first Saturn was driven off of the assembly line by Owen Bibber and Roger Smith July 30, 1990. The Spring Hill, TN plant now builds the new Chevy Traverse and is still represented by the UAW. Indiana Journey
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Old 12-26-2008, 07:21 AM   #355
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Lindsay, You call the Federal Auto loans "the UAW bailout" It is not the UAW bailout, it is loans to GM & Chrysler Auto companies. These loans impact the UAW represented employees of these companies. The leaders of the auto companies are the ones who have to decide where the money will ultimately be spent, kind of like the AIG loans. AIG spent the money where they wanted to spend it, not where their shareholders wanted to spend it. The UAW has a contract with the auto companies that is opened every four years. The contract starts from line one every time it is renegotiated. The benefits are negotiated at each contract, not started from where the old contract stops. Each party [company & union]comes to the table with their "demands" and negotiate from there. Sometimes the company gets the best end and sometimes the union does. When the last contract was signed in 2007 the Union made many consessions to the companies in wages and benefits. Now, because of the unforseeable problems in the economy the companys are in trouble. This is not unique to just the D3, it is worldwide. Countries all around the world are GIVING, not loaning money to their auto companies to keep them alive for the good of their countries economies. The US government probably gives more money to the agricuture community in one year to not grow food and prop up the prices than the total of the Auto loans. The economy is too week to not loan this money to the Auto companies. Indiana Journey
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Old 12-26-2008, 09:48 AM   #356
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You are allowing your feelings for all unions color your decisions here. The big three are over. They have been losing money for decades. They have lost 50% of their employees in America to the effecient well pauing transplants. Their net stock value is less than 11 billion dollars, They have debts of $51 billion plus unfunded obligations to retirees of between $60 and $100 billion. There isn't a bank in thw world that would loan them money. Even the mafia wouldn't. They can not survive with their crippling debt brought on by the huge labor obligations. This all happened before the economic slowdown. They are toast. This a payback from politicians who gave them 400 million dollars in the last election cycle. Look at the facts. They can never be sucessful wtih the huge burden of the $73/hour total compensation. It is unfair to ask hard working tax payers to pay for these early retirees (51 years old) to receive gold plated healtcare when the rest of us are struggling to pay our own high deductable policies. By refusing to buege an inch the union bosses are destroying the company and insurance that a liquidation judge will sell off the assets. For the employees they need to give the companies a chance for suceess. They are going to stiffle any chance for success. You may be willing to weork so these guys can get free healthcare, but most Americans are struggling to pay their own and think these guys should too. Insisting on no concessions brings down the whole thing for everybody. I was also agaisnt the other bailouts. but they did have a reason. If teh UAW want to sve teh big three then they need to agree to normal healthcare for their members snd let them try to compete. Now they big three are carrying too big of a burdent to ever survie.
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Old 12-26-2008, 02:16 PM   #357
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As stated in a previous post about the agriculture sector of our country, the government is subsidizing the consumer so that you can have cheap food and is not subsidizing the farmer! IJ this thread is on the Big3 and the UAW please stay on the threads intent. I am a very active union member but grew up in the breadbasket of America and will fight for the American Farmer with remarks like that. I know that Hondo has been coming to bat for you and he is a member of a craft union, not a factory one so please watch what toes you might want to step on. Book2
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Old 12-26-2008, 03:49 PM   #358
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There is no question in my union hating mind that they served a very useful purpose at their advent.

That said, they have garnered more and more power to the disadvantage of the goose that lays their golden egg. Yes, they instituted many employment standards (40 hour week, child labor, and even the oppressive OSHA to some degree), but now that they have been set, the union thug ruling group in labor in hardly needed.

I seriously doubt management would revert to the 'old days' overnight. They might try, but the threat of unionization is a powerful force. If you don't believe me, wait til Card Check becomes law and watch the flight off shore.
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Old 12-26-2008, 05:07 PM   #359
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Hamguy, I can't imagine what happened in your life to cause you to be "union hating" obviously it was a very profound experience for you but a blanket statement about "union thugs" is overboard. The union still have a place in the US, the construction of homes is being overrun by illegal aliens. Which seems odd considering the high cost of housing. All that money is going somewhere, but not to the US workers. I also think you're mistaken regarding the current need for unions.
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Old 12-26-2008, 07:47 PM   #360
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book2roadtrash,I was raised on a farm and love the farm life and think that the farmers deserve everything they earn. The agriculture business has been "subsidized" for several years in the way of "CROP" payments, guaranteed prices for their crops,high tariffs on imports of agriculture goods, soilbank payments, and various other subsidies. Many of these aren't helping the small farmer but are helping the big business farms and other agriculture industries. This is what I was talking about when it comes to farm subsidies Indiana Journey
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Old 12-27-2008, 03:41 PM   #361
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Hondo

My attitude towards unions was developed in the late 50's through personal experiences and watching unions destroy a city and industry.

I lived in Sioux City, Iowa and watched the UPWA go on strike after strike at the various packing houses in the town.

During one strike period the animosity rose to the point that one cop was shot and killed trying to keep union thugs and workers apart.

In another instance a union thug placed a bomb next to a packing house manager's home and blew it up, killing a young girl.

There is only a mere vestige of packing house work there now. The rest moved to more accomodating locales.

My personal experinece involved my hiring at a factory in that "Right-to-Work" state. I had just been shown my job when the union thug rep came by and explained how I 'had to' join the union. When I pointed out that I was only a temp. hire for the summer, he told me in no uncertain terms how I could NOT do my job with 2 broken arms. I joined.

A year later I hired on to work at the SAGE construction installation at the airport. I was given promised employment in other locations when this job was finished. Ya, sure. I was very good at what I did and got rave reviews from the managers. When the job ended...Bye-Bye union.

The union thugs wouldn't even talk to me.

In my rather jaded eye, that is enough.
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Old 12-27-2008, 05:36 PM   #362
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I'm not an advocate of unions. When I was young, around 8 or 9, my father out of work from Reed & Prince, in Worcester, MA, while the union had a strike. The union was supposed to pay the out of work workers a stipend to make ends meet, but that money shortly stopped. After 3 months of no work, and reporting as required to the strike line, he found another job so we could live. The strike ended and we never did hear what the outcome was.

When I was 15 years old I worked part time after school and on Saturdays for a grocery chain. I was required to join the Amalgamated Meat Cutter's Union. I attended only one "strike" meeting (A meeting to determine if we were going to strike or not) and watched the high echelon union members manipulate the crowd. Fortunately the vote failed and we did not go on strike.

A study was done some time back about the unions. It was stated that in it's day, the union was a very good thing in that it gave the workers a decent days wage for a decent days work. As the years went by, union member, with all the breaks for smoking, coffee, etc., were working 4-5 hours out of an 8 hour day.

My youngest son was making hot shot deliveries about 6 years ago. He arrived at a refinery to deliver a 1 pound part that was needed. (Apparently because it was hot shot deliver it was needed soon.) When he walked into the area it was 1 minute after noon time. He was told by the men sitting around the table that he would have to wait until 1230 to get one of their signatures as they were on lunch break, union rules. A young man, trying to make a living and depending on "time," as a means to that living had to wait 29 minutes for a signature.

No! I don't have to much good to say about unions now-a-days.
I don't bad mouth them, but I just don't have anything good to say about them. The above is not bad mouthing, but truth.
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Old 12-28-2008, 01:02 AM   #363
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The unions served their purpose years ago. Times have changed and so have people. Workgroups are more empowered in the 21st century.
This country needs to continue to be progressive. Old ways and old ideas need to be replaced by innovation.
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Old 12-28-2008, 05:48 AM   #364
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My uncle carries a beat-up hunk of metal in his pocket, and has for 25+ years. It's the .30-06 rifle slug that he dug pout of the sleeper of his Kenworth. It was intended to take his head off, and would have had he been sleeping in the bunk instead of digging through a box of street atlases. His offence was having the temerity to demand a "union brother" load his truck correctly.

He considers most unions to be domestic terrorist groups that should be dealt with as such.
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