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Old 12-28-2008, 06:44 AM   #365
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You all have valid points, but they are isolated incidents many years ago. The Unions of those days, are gone replaced by unions that work in partnership with business in order to maintain what we have. The unions of today are much different. You are talking of horrid acts of individuals not the organization. Are there still bad apples, sure, but in no higher proportion than on business' side.
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Old 12-28-2008, 07:00 AM   #366
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Many people touting the virtues of unions automatically take the high moral ground and say that anybody ďunion BashingĒ is horrible, bad and obviously a bigot. The is unfair and basically unacceptable. Poster here have berated other posters a union basher when in fact I have had lots of union experience and it has all been bad. I have had many employees working for me who have been hurt by the thugery of the some unions and I see the employees and especially retirees of the UAW that are going to soon find their future at the hands of a liquidation attorney rather than at the hands of a bankruptcy judge trying to salvage the best they can from decades of excesses that have brought the Big Three to their knees and already cost over half of their employees to be unemployed. The more I see the UAW president on TV, it becomes more and more obvious to me that his concern is for his cushy job and benefits instead of making the best of a bad situation for they members of his union. This is very sad. The big three are toast with the present business model and this just obvious to anybody stopping and thinking about it. They can never compete. The down hill spiral has gone on for years and the latest downturn just hastened the funeral. They have to drastically modify their healthcare and retiree benefits and must of all get rid of this drastically harmful 30 and out that has ruined the companies. The rest of America works until normal retirement age. They want to eat at the public trough for 15 years. They also need to be working and paying their Medicare payments that they will be using later. We pay into Medicare for 45 years and they pay into it for 30 years. Unfair to the 99% of American workers paying their own way. The early retirees need to start paying their own way like the rest of us and the notion of the hard working Americans paying taxes to keep them in their no deductible, no copay gold plated healthcare is unfair to all and if the posters would just stop and think about it instead of automatically just calling us bashers, I think they would certainly agree that this insanity must end and the best thing the union can do is t help make the companies viable and make it as easy as possible on their members. When the fight to the death of the companies as they are, they union bosses will end up well taken care of and the 770,000 members (175,000 still working) will ended up on the short end of the stick. Time for the union bosses to get real and work for their members rather than demanding my taxpayer money.
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Old 12-28-2008, 07:07 AM   #367
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The Unions of those days, are gone replaced by unions that work in partnership with business in order to maintain what we have. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Surely, you don include the UAW in this. They won't even stop the jobs bank program where 12,000 former workers get paid for doing nothing when teh companyis on teh brink of going under and must beg for money from the taxpayer. The UAW has no concept of the worjk partnership. They won't budge on heathcare and the other items driving the companies into the ground. Surely you cna't beleive they are "partners". Is this a joke?
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Old 12-28-2008, 12:33 PM   #368
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Lindsay don't cherry pick quotes to make a point. There are some things that unions do and have done are wrong. That doesn't make all unions bad. You have a right to complain where your taxes go, that's what a democracy is. I don't believe anyone is calling anyone else a horrible person. Maybe the pro union folks seem to have taken the moral high ground because they chose that route. I really don't want this to become personal let's keep it to the facts.
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Old 12-28-2008, 01:04 PM   #369
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Hondo, to keep to the facts, we have to first get to the facts. I have tried to keep this to the UAW and not to all unions. Here are a couple:

The big three can not survive with their present business model. They have lost 40% of their sales to the transplants and are hugely in debt.

They are paying $73/hr total compensation as when their competitors are paying only $44.

The purchasers of current vehicles have to pay for the retirement and gold plate healthcare who retired up to 15 years earlier than is normal when the transplant companies are having their workers work right up to Medicare age just like the rest of us and have fully paid up retirements.

The big three exec went to Washington with hat in hand and begged for the hard working taxpayers to pay for these costs when they can not even start to compete with this huge weight on their back.

Please address thse facts and how a bailout of billions of dollars of our money makes good sense when they canít succeed with these burdens.
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Old 12-28-2008, 01:25 PM   #370
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Hey guys this subject has been beaten to death and we can all see where its headed.

There are more important subjects that need your attention such as the fact that my dash air is blowing warm air and my steering wheel horn doesnt work.

Does anyone know if they are possibly connected or share a relay?????????
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Old 12-28-2008, 03:07 PM   #371
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Lindsay, my only problem with what you are saying is the retirees spent the careers working under contracts that now are useful as tp. They played by the rules and the rules are changing.If I spent 30 years working for a company making decisions that affect the rest of my life, I'd be PO. Now who should pay? I don't know, but there are funds that the government runs that pay for pensions when companies go belly up. Now many of these outfits were buy outs that the owners raided the pension funds, fair that I should pay for that, don't think so but we are all Americans and we share the hardships JMO
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Old 12-28-2008, 04:10 PM   #372
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Unfortunately companies and whole industries go under all the time. This has stricken just about every family. I mentioned earlier in the thread that my family was in the small drug store business, my wifeís dad had a small motel in Florida, good friends worked in banking all his life and was told to get lost at 58 years old. These all went the way of the buggy whip maker. It happens and they didnít expect the other taxpayers to bail them out. They all did other things to support their families. The UAW killed the goose that laid the golden egg and just about everybody knew it was coming 35 years ago. The pension extension funds do just take over the pension, but provide a stipend for a portion of them that is more normal for American businesses. Healthcare is not provided for those under 65 and the people who retired very early and therefore didnít pay into Medicare like the rest of America would be on their own for healthcare until the reached 65 (just like me who pays $1946/month for my BC/BS). They might even have to do the unthinkableÖ.. Get a job at only 53 or 54 years old. Can you imagine actually working at the old age of 54 years old? As far as sharing hardships, I donít think the people still working should be forced to pay gold plated healthcare for the people retiring 15 years before 98% of American workers can. Retiring at 51 years old is not exactly a hardship. This is wrong in my mind and Iíd like to hear why you seem to think it is right. The contracts are TP as all contracts with a bankrupt firm are. The best thing for everybody would be for the UAW to say, OK here we are, what can we all do to be the best for our members and the remaining American auto industry. They then get the best deal they can that leaves the big three in a position to compete. They are doing the exact opposite by refusing to make any meaningful concessions. They are forcing either liquidation or other hardworking taxpayers to pay them the benefits that can no longer be afforded. Their stubbornness is going to ruin the industry and all their members. The government has one main source of income, and that is the people. We donít see them selling Yellowstone park. Any money going to these relative young people to have very inexpensively priced gold plated healthcare and pensions comes from the people and it is unearned by them. They want to eat at the public trough. Shame on them.
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Old 12-28-2008, 04:17 PM   #373
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Lindsay, they need to change, no doubt about it but the are not the ones that caused this problem. Maybe big business should have stood up to them but they didn't. We're here now what do we do? I don't pretend to have the answers but can't you admit the retirees are victims? The individual members are along for the ride. The people at the top on both sides are doing the driving.
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Old 12-28-2008, 08:39 PM   #374
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It looks like GMAC will recieve TARP funds. This should help GM's customers be able to get financing for new cars, which has been a big problem up to now. The banks were not lending money for the purchase of much of anything lately. It will also free up money for home loans through GMAC. Hopefully the economy will start picking up. Indiana Journey
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Old 12-29-2008, 07:13 AM   #375
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When the government starts picking winners by favoring one company over another one, then they are also by default picking losers by not favoring companies. That seems kind of un-American me and was one reason I was against the whole concept of bailouts to begin with. TARP was supposed to buy up troubled assets (thatís what the TR stands for). The amount going to GMAC (who I have my coach insured with for now) is small compared to the total of $700 billion, much of which is not being loaned out as intended. I would wish that the banking system go back to the old methods of making sure that the borrower has the income and ability to pay back the loan. When we bought our first house, we had to have 20% cash plus closing costs which took a while to save and it makes you appreciate it more. This nonsense of loaning 100% or so on a house or vehicle is really dumb and I hope the lenders have learned their lessons. The whole idea of being upside down on a car is just very stupid and lenders should require enough down payment and shorter loan periods (like 3 years) to insure that it doesnít happen. These failures make it more expensive for us all who do pay our responsibilities.
I have pretty much given up trying to get across my ideas of each of us being responsible for our own self and that the government can not be relied on to bailout individuals who for whatever reason find themselves in a pickle. I knew 35 years ago that the 30 and out was an unsustainable plan and so did anybody that understood the basics of math. I can not get my idea across that having taxpayers pay for the very elitist healthcare for 51 year old retirees is not fair and unfortunately some people think that if an idea has the word union attached to it then anything is golden. This seems to be commonsense and am going to get back to more productive ways of spending my time. I will be discussing this further with Hondo over a beer in person at a later date, but I am just wasting electrons here as he is convinced it is my responsibility to pay for the young retired guys not working for a living and contributing to Medicare that they will eventually be using when I finish paying for their healthcare. Paying your own way used to be a great American concept, but somehow it has gone out of style.
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Old 12-29-2008, 12:51 PM   #376
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Lindsay, "peace brother" I hope to find you in good health when our paths cross. Mike
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Old 12-30-2008, 01:17 PM   #377
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Hey guys, let's keep the thread going. Just because Lindsay and I kissed and made nice doesn't mean the rest of you can't continue to try and denigrate union membership. Let's give it the old college try!
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Old 12-30-2008, 01:38 PM   #378
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The thread was about the bailout of the big three by having the taxpayers take over a portion of the healthcare and retirements of the very early retirees of the UAW. Only you took comments as denigrating all union membership. I think if we talked about that, then the thread would continue. The continued switching everything said to construe the poster as a union basher is what killed the thread (I my opinion.) Lots of current info available about the bailout, but it always degraded down to the posters bashing all unions. Iíd like to continue talking about the bailout, but am not interested in talking about all unions and that sort of thing. This is like talking about abortion.... People just get mad and never a chance to change anybodies mind. For example, there was a great article today in the Wall Street Journal that anybody interested in this subject should read. Linked below.

http://online.wsj.com/article/...060246925441479.html
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