Community Forums

Marty too · 12-30-2008, 01:29 PM

As I've said before, I've been watching this thread trying to get an education from the common guys, not newspaper, TVs or what ever just to see what others are thinking. I don’t know if you all know or are aware what the Snope’s program is all about, in a nut shell, determines the truthfulness or falsehood in something that is floating around the internet. Today via Email, I received one of those messages that Snopes class as truthful that covers this subject very well. If you’re interested, take a look at------

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/knox.asp

This guy blasted both sides on this bail out subject.

Marty

hondo122 · 12-30-2008, 01:56 PM

The only thing that snopes is verifying is that the sender "Knox" sent the letter. Not the truth of the facts of the letter. I don't know what if any is true or false but as Knox said he was venting, not fact checking. Look guys I only need 9 more posts to get my fourth campfire. So don't quit on me.

Lindsay Richards · 12-30-2008, 03:07 PM

Well, you can get one by commenting on the artilce I just linked from today's WSJ.

indiana journey · 12-30-2008, 03:49 PM

I can only tell about the 31 years that I worked at the GM plants and 6 years at the Delphi plants. The 30 and out is a fully funded pension plan. The health care of the employees and retirees would be fully funded if it were not for the bonuses paid to the bosses, top to bottom. The money that was to be set aside for the health care of both the salaried and union employees was paid out in bonuses to the salaried employees. The transplant companies put this money aside each year. The retired UAW workers had no say whatsoever in the decision, but are being blamed for the consequinses of management's poor planing. They are victims, just like the taxpayers, of poor management. The money loaned to GM will go for taxes, materials,wages,healthcare,and other things involved in the automotive business. The smallest part of that is probably wages and healthcare of all of the GM employees not just the UAW employees. Indiana Journey

indiana journey · 12-30-2008, 03:56 PM

Lindsay, the article was written by an anti-union lawyer. His views are very slanted against the union and the people who work for the D3. Just look at his credentials. Indiana Journey

Lindsay Richards · 12-30-2008, 05:15 PM

The author is a law professor at a Detroit college and if you know of any problems as you post, what are they? What specifically do you find incorrect? Lets discuss specifics. Facts please! He states that the Big Three hires CEO’s to come in to run the operations and they have been super successful and they fail at the UAW controlled operations. The foreign branches make money and the transplants make money. What fails consistently is the UAW plants. Now tell me where he is wrong.

The information about the 30 and out pensions being fully funded is incorrect and is borne out by everything your read. It, along with the healthcare is adding about $2,500 to each vehicle. The healthcare can not be fully funded as they had no idea what healthcare would even cost for the 30 plus years that the employees and dependant spouses would be living after they completed their 30 years of work. Fully funded means that the money is paid into a fund or an insurance policy each year and is sufficient to pay the debt in the future. Saying that these are fully funding is almost as bad as saying the average auto worker dies 2 months after retirement. I have seen nothing (and I looked) indicating that they live any less than regular hard working Americans. You could make a great case in that they lived longer as they worked a lots less years (15 years less) and had an elite healthcare program not available to 95% of other workers. The transplant companies utilize the 401k system like almost all companies. It is not set aside, but paid into an official government regulated system controlled by the employee and can be borrowed against and withdrawn (with taxes and penalties). It is totally different than the shame game the UAW workers have where the current workers pay for the retirees like in social security. It is incorrect to think this money was “stolen” for bonuses. Look, the UAW workers are costing the buyers of new cars $73/ hour total compensation. Doesn’t work and won’t continue. The workers don’t get but a small part of the differenc in wages. It is the early retirees who suck up the money and make then unable to compete in the market. About 60% of that is going to underage retirees pensions and healthcare. Over 65 healthcare is small compared as most is covered by Medicare. The company only pays part B and part D.

Did you ever stop to think how slanted yoru views are towards the union. The UAW can do no wrong except they have driven the great American car companies into the same place as the steel companies went. Never fear, there are other places in America that are taking up the slack and producing great vechiles at great prices and with great wages.

hondo122 · 12-30-2008, 05:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by indiana journey:
Lindsay, the article was written by an anti-union lawyer. His views are very slanted against the union and the people who work for the D3. Just look at his credentials. Indiana Journey </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yea what he said! Seriously, it is a very slanted article by a labor lawyer, who obviously didn't have the nerve to do what he accuses others of doing, standing up for what he believed in. He's standing back and pointing fingers instead of stopping it when he was doing the negotiating.
His credentials are;
"Mr. Robinson is a professor of law at the University of Detroit Mercy. He is former general counsel of Delphi, ITT Automotive and Metaldyne, and former head international and commercial lawyer for Chrysler."
I REST MY CASE

Lindsay Richards · 12-31-2008, 03:07 AM

I see you were unable to come up with a single thing the author said that was wrong and can only attack his motives. Many articles by union types have been linked here and nobody has “rested their case“. We need to deal in the facts of the case. Now what did he actually say that was incorrect? Lets go with some facts here and leave about the supposition. I quoted what he had to say about the CEO’s and think he is correct. How is he wrong?

diandtom · 12-31-2008, 03:34 AM

Most of our money is in stocks and we cannot buy a car or anything big until the market goes back up. At our age we are not going to finance anything. We wanted a new RV next year but going to keep what we got a little longer. I am lucky as our car and truck are fairly new and in very good shape. Before the Winchester plant closed down last June I got everything for the fiver fixed including a new roof that had been giving me problems since new.
Tom

Lindsay Richards · 12-31-2008, 03:54 AM

Tom, we are in exactly the same position and just about everybody else is too. We were lucky (no skill involved) in getting out of debt and buying big expense items after we sold our business 2 ½ years ago. We have moved a lot into bonds and cash type instruments and reduced our draw by 50 % and are working a lots more. We survived the recessions and housing slumps before and will survive this one too. I just hope the country as a whole learns something about living beyond it’s means. Lending money should be reserved only for those with the ability to pay to back and big down payments are a necessity. In Florida here, I say lots of guys who all of a sudden stated their own construction companies to do things like dry wall, plumbing, framing, ETC with several employees, buy new houses and $40,000 pickups lose it all when the housing bubble burst. They left huge amounts of debt and were back at square one and unfortunately many ended up divorced. We have cycles and people have to learn to store up their nuts for the winter which will come sooner or later. We can not rely on the government to bail us out.

hondo122 · 12-31-2008, 06:46 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lindsay Richards:
I see you were unable to come up with a single thing the author said that was wrong and can only attack his motives. Many articles by union types have been linked here and nobody has “rested their case“. We need to deal in the facts of the case. Now what did he actually say that was incorrect? Lets go with some facts here and leave about the supposition. I quoted what he had to say about the CEO’s and think he is correct. How is he wrong? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lindsay, it is an opinion piece, they are his opinions not necessarily facts. Just because it's published in the WSJ mean it's true. Which executives are afraid of the UAW? He needs to name people and have dates before I will blindly follow him.

Lindsay Richards · 12-31-2008, 06:56 AM

I am not asking you to blindly follow him, I am asking you to comment on the facts that time after time new big three executives who have been super successful elsewhere come in and fail where the UAW is involved and are successful overseas and elsewhere. The transplants make money and have huge waiting list for employees who make nearly twice the average American total compensation. Everywhere the UAW and their strangling work rules are involved failure happens every time. Is this just a coincidence? You wanted to discuss, so discuss.

Interesting undercover video from a Detroit TV station on why the money isn’t there. Watch it.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/.../15908257/index.html

hondo122 · 12-31-2008, 07:25 AM

Lindsay, those 2 guys were bums. They are a cancer on the union, there is no defense.How many more are doing this? I agree that this is unacceptable. And as the other 2 UAW workers interviewed said it is wrong.

Lindsay Richards · 12-31-2008, 08:18 AM

They may be bums, but they were the two highest ranking UAW officials in the plant and the ones making the decisions about things and these are the guys that get promoted up through the system. The cancer has spread right on thought to the top and the 175,000 workers and 500,000 retirees are the ones suffering as well as the 180,000,000 stockholders who lost their collective rears. I might add that these guys held elected positions in the UAW plant. This isn’t an isolated case.