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Old 01-01-2009, 07:14 AM   #407
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Let me say it one more time as plain as possible. Disney (I have read recently) built the road for 35% of the cost of what the state could have built the road. As I said before, this was the cost of the road (exclusive of land cost) and was not, I repeat, not the labor rate, it was the total cost of the road. For example (and I am just making these numbers up as the math is easy) the state would have built the 5 mile 4 lane road for example $10 million, Disney built it for $3.5 million. (both exclusive of land cost.) This does not mean labor rates, it means total cost of building the road thru private companies efficiencies vs. Governmental waste that we all see when observing road construction. Let me say it again so you will understand. This has nothing to do with labor rates union, nonunion, illegal, legal, in-house or anything else. The 35% number is the total cost of the road exclusive of land rates. This type of thing is also true in other areas such as schools and prisons.

The wrongly named employee free choice act does in fact do away with the secret ballot and elections if the unions are able to coerce over 50% of card checks. Are you disagreeing with that or agreeing with that and saying secret ballot elections will still be held or not? Also are you actually posting things written by a biased prounion lawyer after complaining about others posting things written by an antiunion lawyer?
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Old 01-01-2009, 07:39 AM   #408
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"There is no way a non union contractor can come up with 200 skilled carpenters on 2 days notice. Union contractors have lists of people they can call."

How in the world can a schedule be so fouled up as to allow an urgent (2 day notice) need for 200 'skilled' carpenters? Besides, any non-union contractor certainly would have the ability to make such a list.

Virtually all of the excuses I have read here for unions are 'red herrings'.

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Old 01-01-2009, 08:38 AM   #409
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Lindsay, states don't build roads, they pay contractors to build roads, then they maintain them so I can't understand where your data comes from.

Hamguy, every time there is a special event such as the soon to happen Presidential Inauguration they need extra help on short notice. The same with refinery shutdowns due to disaster. Also most conventions and trade shows require many people on short notice for a short duration. There are many examples which are due to unexpected circumstances. Non union contractors don't have the depth of help required by these instances. I would bet that even the largest non union firms couldn't come up with an extra 200 skilled workers on short notice.
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Old 01-01-2009, 10:22 AM   #410
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Once again, I have no data. I read an article that Disney said that they built the road for 35% of what the state contractors could build it for. I think it is correct because I see tremendous waste in the state approved and specified building codes for state and federal roads. (Once again, I made no claim as to labor rates as that wasn’t included in the article.).

Hondo, I might be mistaken, but I do believe that they have the presidential
inauguration every 4 years and it is pretty much always in the same place. That would be plenty of notice I would think. In many states, they don’t have much of any construction unions (like in my state of Florida) and believe me they get the buildings up like you wouldn’t believe. No matter what you have heard, unions are not a necessity to do business and to build things. In fact, unions as previously mentioned are declining rapidly as evidenced by the fact that they are trying do away with the secret ballot. The opinion that anything union is good and anything not union is bad is completely wrong. After our discussions on the damage the UAW has done and seeing tow of their high ranking elected bosses on video, I though that this would be clear by now.
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Old 01-01-2009, 11:49 AM   #411
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lindsay Richards:
Once again, I have no data. I read an article that Disney said that they built the road for 35% of what the state contractors could build it for. I think it is correct because I see tremendous waste in the state approved and specified building codes for state and federal roads. (Once again, I made no claim as to labor rates as that wasn’t included in the article.).

Hondo, I might be mistaken, but I do believe that they have the presidential
inauguration every 4 years and it is pretty much always in the same place. That would be plenty of notice I would think. In many states, they don’t have much of any construction unions (like in my state of Florida) and believe me they get the buildings up like you wouldn’t believe. No matter what you have heard, unions are not a necessity to do business and to build things. In fact, unions as previously mentioned are declining rapidly as evidenced by the fact that they are trying do away with the secret ballot. The opinion that anything union is good and anything not union is bad is completely wrong. After our discussions on the damage the UAW has done and seeing tow of their high ranking elected bosses on video, I though that this would be clear by now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So what does government waste in design have to do with union labor rates. I also don't think they over design I think the under design when you take into account the neglect our infra structure receives..
My use of the inauguration as an example was a poor choice even though this one is going to be extraordinary. As far as what I've heard, it's what I've seen. I've run jobs that had non union contractors doing the fitouts of commercial space we had built. For the most part it was a joke, inexperienced project managers telling inexperienced foremen telling incompetent worker what to do. It usually take twice as many workers twice as long to do inferior work. This isn't here say these are things I've seen.
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Old 01-01-2009, 11:50 AM   #412
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Hondo122,

Based on my past experience, I do not allow my college students to source Wikipedia. Anyone with an keyboard and an axe to grind can manipulate the information and I can give some extreme examples. Everything contained in Wikipedia is not wrong but it could be based on a distorted or selective view of any given topic.

This link includes the opponents' view and some source material for the topic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_Free_Choice_Act
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Old 01-01-2009, 12:27 PM   #413
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Rebuke accepted. Upon googling the act everything that comes up is biased to one side or the other.
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Old 01-01-2009, 01:55 PM   #414
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""So what does government waste in design have to do with union labor rates.""


Never once did I equate the too. That was you and I have and continued to say that I didn’t mention labor rates. One and for all (again).,Disney said they built the road for 35% of the total cost that they state would have paid. They made no reference to labor rates and I will not answer this question again no matter now many times it is asked. Wikipedia can be changed by anybody and is rarely a good source for anything with any controversy. I recently read an article about PhD anti global warming expert that noticed in his Wiki page that it said he believed in flying saucers. He went in and changed it. 10 minutes later, he went back in and it had been changed back to the lie of him believing in flying saucers. He changed it 24 times in several days and it kept coming back and getting worse. Global warming zealots were monitoring the site and changing the truth back to their self-serving lies. The text of the incorrectly named employee free choice act is clear....If 50% of the employees are coerced into signing a card, then there is no election, no secret ballot, no nothing except a union mandated by law. I have been involved in several union organizing drives and they can be brutal. I mentioned how female employees stated to me that thugs came to their houses after work demanding they sign the cards. The union organizers are paid by the signed cards. The NLRB held the election and the union got less than half of the % of cards they got signed by a secret ballot election which is a hallmart of American, to me proving the intimidation. You have said you were against the secret ballot which I find almost impossible to believe that anybody could be.
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Old 01-01-2009, 06:20 PM   #415
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hondo122,

No intent to rebuke, only inform. Any discussion outside the actual text of the whole document is subjective from both sides and some arguements will never be won within a society built upon free speech.
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Old 01-01-2009, 07:21 PM   #416
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I think that free speech concept went out the door along with the secret ballot in union elections.
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Old 01-02-2009, 04:12 AM   #417
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THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!! I don't posses the knowledge base nor the perseverance, skill and dedication required to positively contribute to this FABULOUS discussion, BUT, I can recognize such, and greatly admire those of you who DO have these kind of attributes which you've exhibited and contributed to this important discussion thread, and, I, for one want to sincerely THANK YOU for sustaining this wonderful, informative, dialog. I've learned so much reading your posts, and hopefully others have also. The WORK and commitment you've contributed is nothing short of phenomenal!!! Lest you ever feel dispirited, keep in mind that as of today, there have been almost TEN THOUSDAND "VIEWS" (9,500 some) of this discussion, and many are following it closely!! I don't know for sure, but THIS might be some kind of record for the iRV2 site. Again, to those of you who "can...and DO", THANK YOU. Steve & Lynette
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Old 01-02-2009, 06:31 AM   #418
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This thread started out about the "big three" bailout and has gotten off-course several times. Hopefully we can get it back on-course and keep an eye on the loans to GM and Chrysler. I read today that GM is paying a large payment to its suppliers with some of the money. This will keep the suppliers running and help keep all of the auto companies [US & transplant] able to keep building cars and trucks. GMAC also is offering 0% financing to its customers. This might "get the ball rolling" for the economy. Indiana Journey
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Old 01-02-2009, 06:44 AM   #419
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And interesting article from today’s Wall Street Journal is linked below. It discusses the anticipated problems that will be happening in the bill that will do away with the secret ballot unionization elections. Looks like this great American right might have a chance yet of the $400 millions donated to the dem politicians.

http://online.wsj.com/article/...085879658147927.html
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Old 01-02-2009, 09:59 AM   #420
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The Wall Street Journal used to be a very good business/financial newspaper. Since Rupert Murdock bought it in 2007 it has become one of his ultra-conservative rags. Most people don't put too much trust in many of the articles in this paper anymore. Indiana Journey
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