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Old 11-17-2008, 03:08 AM   #57
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Here is something that I heard about on CNN this morning ....

US Auto Industry and the Ripple Effect
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Old 11-17-2008, 05:03 AM   #58
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GM and Ford are each bleeding cash at the rate of over $2 billion per month. This is like an individual with a severed aorta - he's bleeding out and is on his way to imminent death. A blood transfusion (i.e., loan or lump sum grant of money) won't save him unless a surgeon repairs the aorta as part of the course of treatment.

Unless fundamental changes are made, the Big 3 cannot survive in today's market - a market in which their international competitors are still profitable. My concern is that I don't hear the Big 3, their suppliers or the UAW talking about any willingness to make substantive changes.

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Old 11-17-2008, 05:41 AM   #59
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Tom, I think you hit the nail on the head! Spendable income allows to have these "toys"to enjoy and still be able to have the necessary things like food, medicine, etc. DriVer, Good post. Rusty, Try pulling that nice rig with one of the transplants- I doubt if it can be done safely. The fundamental changes have been started in the auto industry with the labor movement leading the way. These include large wage cuts, benefit reductions, 401k's instead of defined retirements, changes in work assignments, etc. Hopefully,management will follow suite. It will be up to our elected officials to decide what course we will follow, they will ultimately decide the course of our nation. Indiana Journey
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Old 11-17-2008, 05:55 AM   #60
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by indiana journey:
Rusty, Try pulling that nice rig with one of the transplants- I doubt if it can be done safely. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Don't make the mistake of thinking I am anti-Big 3. I'm not. I want them to survive, but they have to get competitive in order to do so. That's the only point I'm making.

Hypothetically, if the Big 3 went under and stopped building diesel duallies, don't you think the Japanese transplants would step into that market? Toyota has 3/4 and 1 ton versions of the Tundra already engineered - they decided not to introduce them when they opened the San Antonio manufacturing plant as they saw weakening sales in this market segment, but it would be pretty easy for them to flip the switch to the "on" position. As far as material is concerned, Cummins is still there to supply their B-series diesel engines, and the Japanese either build or have their own suppliers of engines and other components for their Hino, Mitsubishi Fuso, etc. truck lines that are sold in North America. Nature abhors a vacuum - if a market exists for a product, someone will address it.

So, fine, I don't have an objection to providing Federal funds to the Big 3 IF it's part of a restructuring that's supported by a workable business plan that provides a reasonable chance of success going forward.

(By the way, my truck was built in Mexico.)

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Old 11-17-2008, 06:10 AM   #61
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Rusty is correct. If the Feds offer a bail-out to the Big 3 it needs to have some serious strings attached. The primary one being a business plant to indicate that they have put some serious thought into how to get themselves back on stable ground.

There is going to be some big cuts and consessions from everyone to make it work. First thing I am in favor of is to start cutting some of the big buck oficers that obviously have not done such a great job of directing the company and the middle managers.

If they can not come up with a sound business plan, they need to look for another line of work.

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Old 11-17-2008, 06:37 AM   #62
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Okay folks . . . another contribution, with all due respect, from me . . . you may or may not have the same opinion.

Think about all those things you'd like to do - take a cruise, buy some new tires, delight your lovely wife by surprising her with some shiny silver/gold, start a savings account so your kids can go to college, pay off some lingering debt, get the roof fixed - *** your wants/wishes here***

Now, instead think of your $$$$ going off to highly paid management and employees, all with health and retirement benefits probably better than yours, in an industry currently in a big begging mode, an industry that continues to get smoked by competitors who earn significantly less and offer products we (the US consumers) seem to want.

Money for the Big 3? It's welfare for the relatively wealthy!

These companies, if they don't get help from us taxpayers and go bankrupt WILL NOT simply go out of business - they'll really focus on what they do well (maybe trucks) and attempt (finally) to produce something else that consumers will want to buy.

I'd rather wait to send in my "car payments" to the BIG 3 --- instead of in the form of cash down a big bottomless pit, in payment for something I bought from them.
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Old 11-18-2008, 06:15 AM   #63
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An auto industry bailout is a horrible idea. It would only last 3-5 months and they would be back. They MUST re-do their business plan, including salary and retirement/medical plans.

Let them go bankrupt. They can file Chapter 11 and get help in reorganizing. Few will lose jobs and those that do, were likely not really working anyway.

Paying people during times of shutdowns for model change overs is stupid anyway.

No one pays my insurance, why should I pay it for some unknown worker in Detroit?
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:55 AM   #64
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Ummm.....guess how the CEOs of the Big 3 got to Washington to beg for a bailout? See HERE.

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Old 11-19-2008, 09:26 AM   #65
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The cost cutting needs to start with the CEO's. They can get around without a multimillion dollar plane and chauffer. The problem is the CEO's live in another world and do not have a clue as to how the common person lives day to day.

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Old 11-19-2008, 12:34 PM   #66
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I have seen that 80% after 30 years in numerous places which I can not locate now. Do you have any documentation on that 35% as it is extremely low to everything else I have read? I do know that the 30 years is correct and to me retiring at 51 (had to be 21 years old to start) seems way out of line. The $73/hour is a valid figure and is for total compensation which includes hourly rate, medical coverage, retirement pension for retired workers (averaging $3100/month) and surviving spouses and medical coverage for both also. The have about 1 working worker for 3 retirees and most of their retirement and all of their medical cost is funded by the buyers of today’s vechines even though most companies due it real time. At 55 they can also draw social security and Medicare at 65. During their working live, they were making about twice what a teacher or nurse made (I know because they used to throw it up to me.) and you would think they would have been putting up something themselves for retirement like the rest of us. The cost of just the retirees pension and medical is reported to be about $2300 per vehicle. GM is the world’s largest purchaser of Viagra at $19,000,000 per year. This is the rat hole we are asked to throw money at. The Southern auto workers have a total compensation package of $48 per hour and their pensions are fully funded and they will be expected to work until they are 65 or 62 (with penalty). There are long waiting lists for the Southern auto plants. This huge discrepancy between the union made cars and the nonunion made cars is in my opinion what has killed the big three. I also think the management has obviously made many bad decisions. If we bail them out not with these crushing burdens, we will be continuing to be bailing hem out. What is needed is a structured bankruptcy with a conservator to redo these contracts and get them in line with other industries so they can have a chance to succeed in the modern world. I know this is a real touchy subject.
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Old 11-19-2008, 04:26 PM   #67
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I read the story that Rusty posted above about how the big three auto executives got to Washington to testify and plead for a loan bailout. I also watched the same story unfold on Inside Edition tonight. I watched the three of them testify as they were asked today on live TV how they got to Washington. I watched as the three of them were asked if any one of them were willing to leave their corporate jets behind in Washington to be sold,and for them to take a regular flight back home on a commercial airline,(God forbid!) and not one of them flinched or offered to give it up. All they know is it's in their contract and they are entitled to it.The arrogance that they showed is just unbelievable. They think they have a God given right to live in the lap of luxury that most of you and I could only dream about,all the while their companies are in shambles. I say no bailoput, let them figure it out on the way back home on their corporate jets.If they are willing to help themselves, start with selling off all of the corporate jets that they all posses and take a huge salary cut from their multi million dollar salaries to show us that their biggest concern is the survival of their companies and the survival of all of their employees and I might reconsider my view.If not, let them declare Bankruptcy and start fresh and clean house of all of the garbage.
They want us, The American Taxpayer to sacrifice for them, but they are unwilling to even show us any hint they are willing to do their share in helping their companies. What they are showing us is their Greed that is helping,among a lot of other issues to bring down the companies they were hired to manage, protect and help grow and prosper. The only thing they are worried about is what's in it for me? Shame on them! But,then again they have no shame! What else is one to think as all of this is playing out right in front of all of us on national TV? I am not trying to offend anybody, just my two cents on how I view this.
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Old 11-19-2008, 04:56 PM   #68
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THIS will get your blood to boiling.

They want quality manager...they need to start at the top and show the Ford and GM CEO's the door and pink slip and no early termination pay...just out the door.

Ken
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Old 11-19-2008, 07:09 PM   #69
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Hey Ken,
Your article on CEO quotes has got to be the biggest JOKE I've ever heard!!

Nardelli (now with Chrysler) quoted as willing to cut pay to $1 dollar a year------ Home Depot paid him $210 MILLION to leave and not bankrupt the company with his management. That was 22 months ago. I imagine he still has a couple of bucks to get him by.

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Old 11-19-2008, 09:22 PM   #70
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I wish the 80% was actually what I was paid for my retirement. When I retired a few years back the pay was $28.44 per hour.the pay now is $16.64 per hour after one and one-half years of employment.My retirement is based on my total years of service. The $3100 is a special rate for 30 and out retirees. When they reach age 62 and one month their pensions are then reduced to the amount of senioritywhich they retired with. This usually amounts to about $1600 per month plus social security[with a 20% or more cut for early retirement on their social security security].I guess 35% was a little high- 32.4% is closer. Yes, my Spouse gets a survival amount[about 60% of $1600] per month. Our medical costs are sometimes covered by insurance but not as much as they used to. Teachers have much better coverage than we do at this time[our son is a teacher]. My retirement was put into the retirement fund as I worked and the fund is mandated by the government to be fully funded each year. My retirement is not comming out of the price of a new car.The new employees[after 8-01-06] pay into their 401ks after they are vested employees and the company matches a portion of their contributions. Their health care is mostly paid for by themselves. Most of the older auto workers made their "good" money by working overtime and they probably liked to brag a little about that money. I personally know RN's that brag about thier checks now. Some say they make $120,000 plus a year. This is accomplished by working lots of overtime. Teachers have to go to where the money is- reciently Seattle, Wa. started paying their beginning teachers $43,000 per year and $72,000 per year with a masters degree. The CEO's of the big three never have been my favorite people, they are not good representatives of the auto companies. Unfortunately the auto workers don't have a say in this either.I worked 36+ years and made pretty good money and tried to plan my retirement within what I was to recieve when I retired[retirement pension, social security, personal savings]. Some of the good citizens of this country seem to advocate reducing my retirement. I could then go out and get a job to make up for the shortfalls in my retirement. Anybody willing to hire someone with lots of health problems caused by my previous employer? Probably not. This problem with the auto companies was brought on by the financial crisis--- no money to lend! We are in the process of giving the financial institutions 700 BILLION DOLLARS with no strings attached. They are using it to buy up other competition and have partys with the money that was to be used as loans.That is the rat hole where we are throwing money. Indiana Journey
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