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Old 11-24-2008, 04:10 PM   #99
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I don't agree. It is the UAW that has ruined the industry. They had their day but it was in 1946. Let competition determine employee value like it has in any job I have ever had. I have worked along side men and women that made more money than me but they were, IMHO, worth more. In a couple cases they weren't and corrections were made because management could see the truth. Except one time. And she was sleeping with the boss. Hard to compete there.

As to Deming, he first proposed his methods in '46 or '47. It was way too late by the time the US auto industry started listening to him and it was because of the Japanese superiority so blatantly evident that they finally did.

But way too late.
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Old 11-24-2008, 05:21 PM   #100
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I noticed that in 10 pages of posts nobody has wondered from where the bail-out (or loan) money would come. Being already some 700 trillion dollars (whatever a "trillion" is) in debt seems to negate any possibility of ultimate success in this sort of venture. If my friend wants to borrow a hundred bucks from me and I'm already in debt up to eyeballs does it makes sense for ME to go to the bank and borrow it so that I can lend it to him?
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Old 11-24-2008, 06:49 PM   #101
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Timetraveler:
I noticed that in 10 pages of posts nobody has wondered from where the bail-out (or loan) money would come. Being already some 700 trillion dollars (whatever a "trillion" is) in debt seems to negate any possibility of ultimate success in this sort of venture. If my friend wants to borrow a hundred bucks from me and I'm already in debt up to eyeballs does it makes sense for ME to go to the bank and borrow it so that I can lend it to him?
Bill </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Someone in the press asked Obama that today and he never did say. I can only guess but anybody with a job their taxes are going up
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Old 11-24-2008, 06:57 PM   #102
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Lawdude,

There is plenty of blame to go around and I had no intention of leaving out the UAW. It was a group effort. The division between the workers and management was one of the major barriers to implementing any of Deming's philosophies.

The management and workers at the "big 3" still have no clue that the international manufacturers can deliver a better car to the American consumer using American resources. Inflated wages and benefits without regard to productivity and/or competitive forces continue to be a major problem that must be dealt with prior to any successful reorganization or salvation. If Uncle Sam would give us the 50 to 100 billion dollars the automakers want as a loan, we could buy all three on the open market and clean house after filing Chapter 11.

I once lost a promotion to an ex-con who was sleeping with the owner's wife...I did not want the job as much as he did.
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Old 11-25-2008, 10:30 AM   #103
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The pay for the big three is little compared to what the exectives are getting and all the perks. I saw where Ford had five jets for travel. I retired from Sprint and it was the same thing there also. Bill Esery(CEO of Sprint at the time) was making around 5 million a year and the company going down. Customer service was out the window and still is.
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Old 11-25-2008, 11:54 AM   #104
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"There is plenty of blame to go around and I had no intention of leaving out the UAW. It was a group effort. The division between the workers and management was one of the major barriers to implementing any of Deming's philosophies.

One problem in your analysis. The 'division' between management and workers didn't exist. Workers never had a say. They are "represented" by the union so the problem lies, as before, with the union.
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Old 11-26-2008, 03:02 AM   #105
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Any barriers that exist between workers and management, regardless of who makes the decision to stop communicating, inhibit productivity and growth. It does not matter if we are taking about the local mom and pop operation or Multinational Corporation.

Assigning blame for past activities is counterproductive to any recovery process. All parties should understand the end result if they fail to adapt to the changing conditions of the failing organization. I have been through Chapter 11 twice and it required compromise and pain from all parties to survive. The courts and creditors are more concerned with protecting assets than assigning blame.
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Old 11-26-2008, 04:36 AM   #106
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tmar10:
--- snipped---
Assigning blame for past activities is counterproductive to any recovery process.
--- snipped ---
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very true . . . BUT, before RECOVERY begins, the root cause of the PROBLEM must be properly identified. You can't solve a problem unless you identify it . . . you can't recover from an addiction unless you acknowledge it (I may be borrowing someones quote there - Dr. Phil?)

If you're interested, watch this video report from 2007 from The Detroit News of a VERY successful Ford plant and listen to the comment at the very end:

http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189

Looks like all parties here, union and management, need to put their dumb ideas and archaic practices on the table --- and get ready to accept blame as it applies, assist in shredding the dumb ideas and archaic practices, then begin a real (not temporary) recovery.

Okay, receiving blame is tough - but if real recovery is the goal, it must be acknowledged. Doesn't take taxpayers' $$$ to do that, either.
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Old 11-26-2008, 06:10 AM   #107
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You can see from this graph what the problem is. The huge difference is mainly related to the 3 plus retirees getting the $3,100 after the 30 years service and still in their early 50’s. Their retirement and medical cost have to be paid by the buyers of currently produced vehicles. The anecdotal evidence of one or tow people’s experience doesn’t really count. The $3,100 is an average figure that comes from the Bureau of Labor stastics and tee graph comes from a Possessor of Economics at the Unit of Michigan. The CEO’s wages are obscene, the effects are very small on the per vehicle cost where the union caused excesses cost the new car buyer about $2500 per vehicle. The 12 transplant companies now producing about 40 % and rising of America’s production were doing fine will the union made companies are drowning id debt. Doesn’t take a genius to see why after looking at these graphs. The only was to fix this is bankruptcy that will reduce this huge discrepancy to the same as the transplant car companies. The $48 is still a lots higher that the average American and the retirement is fully funded and the retirees work until Medicare takes over. The union can not expect the taxpayers to pay for these hug excesses and the America people will not do it.
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Old 11-26-2008, 06:12 AM   #108
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The chart that didn't post above can be seen at

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_otfw...L0/s1600-h/wages.bmp
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Old 11-26-2008, 06:17 AM   #109
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After watching the film about the Ford factory in Brazil I am reminded of the Toyota plant in Texas. It is on a large piece of land given to Toyota by the state of Texas. The roads and utilities were upgraded by the state. Tax abatement was given as well as tax credit for the machinery in the plant and the state of Texas GAVE [not loaned] Toyota $150 million plus to locate there. When GM asked for tax credits for their major retooling of the Arlington plant a few years ago they were refused. That plant is landlocked and couldn't have the same type of manufacturing if they wanted to. The US auto companies started out like the Brazil plant in the article, most of the parts assembled in the same factory. They, not the UAW, moved the parts out of the assembly plants. This was to make a bigger profit, not to save the customer money. If the auto companies are to survive they will have to listen to some of the people that put these cars together, not engineers, not supervisors,and last, but not least, the writers of the columns in the newspapers. Read the 2007 UAW contract with the US auto manufacturera[UAW.com], it might open your eyes to the solutions which are now in progress. Thanks, Indiana Journey
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Old 11-26-2008, 06:37 AM   #110
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Seems the State of Texas and its taxpayers have made a good investment --- enticing a profitable company to build a factory and create good jobs and expand the tax base for its citizens.

Better than taking the taxpayers dollars to shovel them out the other end to an unprofitable and poorly operated company.

Makes me proud of Texas!
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Old 11-26-2008, 07:04 AM   #111
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The Toyota plant just started production Nov.11, 2008 after a three month shutdown. During the shutdown the employees were paid full wages while they took training and did community service. The assembly lines are running for the first four hours and the last four hours are used for training. The plant only has one eight hour shift at this time. The second shift may start back up in April. Sales for the Tundra are off 65% from last year. Toyota blames the downturn on the economy and the lack of money to loan to buy new vehicles. Hopefully, for the employees sake, this plant will succeed. The competition is good for all manufacturers. Indiana Journey
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Old 11-26-2008, 07:15 AM   #112
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Regarding the Tundra plant, Toyota's not twiddling their thumbs waiting for the economy to pick up (pun intended). See HERE.

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