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Old 11-26-2008, 08:54 PM   #113
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I'm sending this to everyone on my email list, not just to crank up people that don't want to help the automakers, but just to show just one thing they've done for other people.

And as far as I know, "NEVER HAVE THE BIG 3 ASKED FOR A BAILOUT, THAT IS WHAT OTHER PEOPLE INCLUDING OUR GOVERNMENT HAVE SAID. THEY HAVE JUST ASKED FOR A "LOAN". THERE IS QUITE A DIFFERENCE.

We all see what has happened around here with just Delphi going down. Now they are laying off safety forces and that hasn't affected me "YET" because I don't live in Warren, but it will eventually.

I hope no one is offended by me sending this to you. Maybe if we all just forward it to a few people or to a Senator outside our own state, because even our Republican Senator Voinivich backs a loan,it will get to the Congress and the Big 3 can get a "LOAN".

I personally sent this with a message to Senator Shelby of Alabama whose state did the following:


Alabama offered a stunning $253 million incentive package to Mercedes. Additionally, the State also offered to train the workers, clear and improve the site, upgrade utilities, and buy 2,500 Mercedes Benz vehicles. All told, it is estimated that the incentive package totaled anywhere from $153,000 to $220,000 per created job. On top of all this, the State gave the foreign automaker a large parcel of land worth between $250 and $300 million, which was coincidentally how much the company expected to invest in building the plant.

Is this not a subsidizing?

Please scroll down and read below.

Thank you,
Bob
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ain't this a kick in the Butt

WAKE UP AMERICA! Read on...

Friday, September 12, 2008 8:07 PM

Subject: Ford and GM's contributions 9/11

An interesting commentary

"CNN Headline News did a short news listing regarding Ford and GM's contributions to the relief and recovery efforts in New York and Washington.
The findings are as follows:

1. Ford Motor Company - $1 million to American Red Cross matching employee contributions of the same number plus 10 Excursions to NY Fire Dept. The company also offered ER response team services and office space to displaced government employees.

2. General Motors Corporation - $1 million to American Red Cross matching employee contributions of the same number and a fleet of vans, suv's, and trucks.

3. Daimler Chrysler Corporation - $10 million to support of the children and victims of the Sept. 11 attack.

4. Harley Davidson motorcycles - $1 million and 30 new motorcycles to the New York Police Dept.

5. Volkswagen - Employees and management created a September 11 Foundation, funded initial with $2 million, for the assistance of the children and victims of the WTC.

6. Hyundai - $300,000 to the American Red Cross.

7. Audi-Nothing.

8. BMW-Nothing.

9. Daewoo- Nothing.

10. Fiat-Nothing.

11. Honda - Nothing despite boasting of second best sales month ever in August 2001

12. Isuzu - Nothing.

13. Mitsubishi - Nothing.

14. Nissan - Nothing.

15. Porsche - Nothing. 20Press release with condolences via the Porsche website.

16. Subaru - Nothing.

17. Suzuki - Nothing.

18. Toyota - Nothing despite claims of high sales in July and August 2001. Condolences posted on their website.

Whenever the time may be for you to purchase or lease a new vehicle, keep this information in mind.

You might want to give more consideration to a car manufactured by an
American-owned and/or American based company.

Apart from Hyundai and Volkswagen, the foreign car companies contributed nothing at all to the citizens of the United States.

It's OK for these companies to take money out of this
country, but it is apparently not acceptable to return some in a time of crisis. I believe we should not forget things like this.

Say thank you in a way that gets their attention.



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Old 11-27-2008, 12:24 AM   #114
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Might want to read this before you send it to far
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/f...36A35756C0A9649C8B63
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Old 11-27-2008, 05:42 AM   #115
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I remember seeing that email with that misinformation years ago. Easy to check out.

As far as Alabama giving incentives to business to locate in their state, most, if not ALL states do this. When a major business announces its intent to build a new plant/facility, the bidding war between the states begins. The state to offer the sweetest package usually wins. It is NOT uncommon.
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Old 11-27-2008, 06:20 AM   #116
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by zigzagrv:
I remember seeing that email with that misinformation years ago. Easy to check out.

As far as Alabama giving incentives to business to locate in their state, most, if not ALL states do this. When a major business announces its intent to build a new plant/facility, the bidding war between the states begins. The state to offer the sweetest package usually wins. It is NOT uncommon. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


The same practices to attract business also applies to cities, and as stated is very common and has been done for years. Witness, Automalls, shopping centers, shopping malls, etc. Some even will contribute land for schools. college campuses.

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Old 11-27-2008, 07:27 AM   #117
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The notion that the big three have not asked for a bailout is just crazy. We all saw their executives begging for one. If they wanted a loan, they could have gone to a bank, but there isn’t a bank in the US which would loan them a penny. Banks have this little thing that they eventually want their money. These banks know the history and can easily figure the future. The big three are saddled with crushing labor and retirement costs where there total compensation per hour is $73 ad the transplants are at $48 total compensation per hour. The union work rules also make more hours per vehicle also. The Big 3 also have about 15,000 laid off workers in the “job bank” doing nothing and receiving 95% of total compensation for doing nothing productive. The workers retiring under the “30 and out” in their early 50’ without fully funded retirements and no funding of the crushing healthcare costs insure that the big three will never compete in the modern world. There are over 3 retirees getting nearly free medical care and larger unfunded retirements for each actual worker. This business model will not work and if the big three are to be saved at all, they must go bankrupt and have a judge void these contracts. As a taxpayer, I am not happy about paying for the retiree medical benefits and retirements of somebody retiring at the ripe old age of 51. Anybody can see this can not continue and even the most staunch union person shouldn’t be asking me t pay my hard earned tax dollars to do so. You have a great ride for a along time, but you ran this part of the American dream into the ground. Get yourself ready to handle your own retirement and don’t rely on me to do it for you.
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Old 11-28-2008, 03:53 PM   #118
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Lindsay, Since you have made all of these allegations, perhaps you will share with us your sources. I have looked everywhere and can't seem to find many of them. Indiana Journey
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Old 11-29-2008, 03:56 AM   #119
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Hello Indiana Journey,

I do not know where Lindsay got all of his info but here source for employee costs:

http://chryslerlabortalks07.com/Economic_Data.rtf

The "job bank" was created through contracts to protect UAW members from outsourcing and other shutdowns which led to nearly 500,000 job losses in the 70's and 80's.

As far as the reorganization is concerned, I was in the airline industry for many years and it felt like Chapter 11 was our home every 10 years. There are going to be painful decisions made that have to be made before any chance of recovery occur in the American auto industry.
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Old 11-29-2008, 06:10 AM   #120
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tmar10, Thanks for the info. The website gives the old [pre 2007 contract] figures. You can get a better idea of what the new figures are on the UAW.org website. It has some of the new contract figures. I too am going through the Ch 11 nightmare and still think that it is not the proper way to handle the problem with the economy. When the banks start to "loosen up" some of the money that the federal government GAVE them, the whole problem will start to get better for everyone. Indiana Journey
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Old 11-29-2008, 09:42 AM   #121
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by indiana journey:
Lindsay, Since you have made all of these allegations, perhaps you will share with us your sources. I have looked everywhere and can't seem to find many of them. Indiana Journey </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have seen similar numbers posted and referenced by the major news networks. What specific piece of data do you disagree with?
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Old 11-29-2008, 11:17 AM   #122
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http://www.snopes.com/rumors/automakers.asp
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Old 11-29-2008, 02:29 PM   #123
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lawdude, I have serious doubts about the following; Hrs per vehicle,95% total comp for job bank employees,retirees w/o fully funded retirement. The executives of the US auto manufacturers did not ask for a "bail-out" they asked for a loan. The only time any of them asked for a loan previously, was when Chrysler was given one. The loan was paid back fully w/interest earlier than was specified by the government. Indiana Journey
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Old 11-29-2008, 03:48 PM   #124
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Yep it was paid back, and look at Chrysler now, first was taken over by Diamler, then taken over by private investors, and still in trouble.No amount of money, loan or otherwise, is going to save the US automakers with the business plan in place now. Just my opinion.

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Old 11-29-2008, 04:45 PM   #125
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My name is Larry...I am an autoworker.

Anybody who doesn't know, the ktp in ktp_guy is Ford's Kentucky Truck Plant, where they make the Superduty pickups. Needless to say, I've got a dog in this fight.

First off, there is no hourly employee making 70 dollars an hour in wages and benefits. As a skilled tradesman (electrician), my compensation over the last five years has ranged from 42 to 48 dollars an hour, wages and benefits. My figures come from my annual summary of wages and benefits, divided by my actual hours worked. And I am among the highest paid UAW workers. Production workers earn about 10 dollars an hours less, wages and benefits.

We are right in line with Toyota and Honda. Or rather, they compensate their people the same as the UAW plants.

The 70 dollars an hour figure is a labor cost. It includes our pay, but adds on the cost of pension and retiree medical benefits that were incurred, but not funded, in prior years. By deferring these costs, the auto industry was able to report higher profits, and the executives received larger bonuses. While, to me, this looks like fraud, it was permissible under "Generally Accepted Accounting Principles."

As an aside, Honda has a defined benefit retirement, like Ford. To them, funding it is just an operating expense. They don't defer it.

Whether or not I'm worth 48 dollars an hour? I keep a big green machine stamping out parts for the Superduty. If the press goes down, the assembly line goes down soon after. Downtime on the assembly line cost $8000-$12000 a minute!, depending on the product mix. If they didn't need me, they wouldn't pay me, UAW or no UAW. Toyota and Honda pay their electricians the same as me, for the same reason.

To say that Toyota or Honda are successful in the currant market is false. Toyota, and to a lesser extent, Honda, have been impacted by the same problems the D3 face now. Toyota imports most of its vehicles that are still selling. Honda doesn't compete in the larger vehicle categories. They are both laying off employees. They call them temporaries, even though they've been there 3-4 years.

The American auto industry is seeking a bridge loan, to carry it past the currant banking mess. A loan, to be repaid, not a bailout.
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Old 11-29-2008, 05:25 PM   #126
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ktp_guy:
To say that Toyota or Honda are successful in the currant market is false. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Toyota and Honda were profitable through the quarter ending September 30th. The Big 3 were not. What's your definition of success??

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