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Old 11-11-2008, 06:24 PM   #1
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We are seeing stock prices below $5.00 on GM stock, Ford is almost less than half of that. Chrysler is on the skids.

If any of these companies go belly up it is likely that what we have known as RV'ing to any major extent may cease to be especially as regards tow vehicles and motorhomes. Recreational vehicles are only small segment of the output from the major auto companies. Trucks are on the decline. GM is closing bread and butter truck plants, so has Ford and Chrysler. If either Ford or GM fails it is likely that the entire US auto industry could fall like domino's and bring Toyota and Nissan into the black hole of bankrupcy. All of the auto companies are tied together for one system or another and they are all interdependent.

You think we're having default mortgage problems now - wait! Take the entire workforce at GM and lay all those folks off and close all those dealerships. All I can say is that it will be devastating to the US economy and will shake the roots of our country.

If the Fed bails out the auto industry it looks like they are going to need something like 50 Billion dollars. When Lee Iaccoca asked for a bailout he asked for and repaid 1 Billion dollars. Something will need to be done soon, like really soon because GM cannot survive on its own much past December and Ford is in worse shape. The financial reporters are saying that it could be possible to see 1 share stock of GM be valued at $0.00. Not a good day.
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Old 11-11-2008, 06:24 PM   #2
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We are seeing stock prices below $5.00 on GM stock, Ford is almost less than half of that. Chrysler is on the skids.

If any of these companies go belly up it is likely that what we have known as RV'ing to any major extent may cease to be especially as regards tow vehicles and motorhomes. Recreational vehicles are only small segment of the output from the major auto companies. Trucks are on the decline. GM is closing bread and butter truck plants, so has Ford and Chrysler. If either Ford or GM fails it is likely that the entire US auto industry could fall like domino's and bring Toyota and Nissan into the black hole of bankrupcy. All of the auto companies are tied together for one system or another and they are all interdependent.

You think we're having default mortgage problems now - wait! Take the entire workforce at GM and lay all those folks off and close all those dealerships. All I can say is that it will be devastating to the US economy and will shake the roots of our country.

If the Fed bails out the auto industry it looks like they are going to need something like 50 Billion dollars. When Lee Iaccoca asked for a bailout he asked for and repaid 1 Billion dollars. Something will need to be done soon, like really soon because GM cannot survive on its own much past December and Ford is in worse shape. The financial reporters are saying that it could be possible to see 1 share stock of GM be valued at $0.00. Not a good day.
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Old 11-12-2008, 04:01 AM   #3
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I remember back in the 80's when the Big 3 had serious cutbacks and the large influx of folks from the rust belt. They came to Houston by the truck load. Most were glad to find a job doing any thing, but they had to adjust their income expectations. They could not get the big wages and other perks afforded them by the unions back home.

I suspect we are in for some rough times. Makes me proud on my paid off 6 year old truck and paid off 29 year old trailer.

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Old 11-12-2008, 04:40 AM   #4
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There's a precedent here in the airlines. At present, U.S. automakers have labor costs that are far higher than their competition's labor costs for their U.S. plants.



A loan isn't going to fix that - it will only delay the inevitable. The airlines had to go through Chapter 11 bankruptcy to void existing labor agreements and bring labor costs under control. In a similar vein, "failure" (i.e., Chapter 11 bankruptcy) may be required to fix the U.S. auto industry's systemic problems.

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Old 11-12-2008, 05:51 AM   #5
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Mike, probably a dumb thing to do, but I did my part, buying 100 shares of Ford stock at $2.44 per share, that's all DW would approve for me to buy and then, it was under protest--LOL.

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Old 11-12-2008, 06:59 AM   #6
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The US automakers have had more than 30 years to effectively compete with the others in the business --- WITHOUT much success, which is obvious.

If we (the taxpayers) bail them out, what do they do with the money and why do we think they then are able to actually compete?

I'm not ready to throw in my hard-earned $$$$$. Doesn't appear to be a very good investment.
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Old 11-12-2008, 07:06 AM   #7
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I agree with Warren. If the business model isn't there, then maybe it is an industry we no longer need to be in. Bailouts are okay, if:
1. there is a business plan that has a good chance to succeed.
2. the $s are paid back.

It is estimated the auto industry employees about 3 million USA workers, directly or indirectly.
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Old 11-12-2008, 08:27 AM   #8
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unfortunately its often very hard to determine if those Points 1 &2 are going to be met,
hard to tell if a valid business model has been met until hindsite,
otherwise the industry wouldn't be having problems in the first place,

bailing Lockheed out 40something years ago wasn't popular and they're still around doing well, so we bail out the Big-3 and give them a little free reigns
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Old 11-12-2008, 08:29 AM   #9
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What is really upsetting with Rusty's chart is that auto woakers (skilled labor) are making moe than a college professor. Something is drastically wrong with this picture. Are the professors under paid or are the auto wokers over paid?

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Old 11-12-2008, 10:36 AM   #10
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TXiceman:
What is really upsetting with Rusty's chart is that auto woakers (skilled labor) are making moe than a college professor. Something is drastically wrong with this picture. Are the professors under paid or are the auto wokers over paid?

Ken </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


How did an assembly line worker get classified as a "skilled worker"? Not much skill required in installing the same part on an assembly line all day long in my opinion. I agree with the airline precedent presented in above post. Something has to be changed in the labor picture before I would be in favor of a bail out. Not that anyone will ask me for my opinion before granting the funds for it anyway! We are talking many BILLIONS of dollars here, and unless things are changed the way U.S. automakers do business, whats to keep them from needing another bailout down the road? Not just labor costs, but a complete overhaul.

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Old 11-12-2008, 11:28 AM   #11
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">... How did an assembly line worker get classified as a "skilled worker"? Not much skill required in installing the same part on an assembly line all day long in my opinion. ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Then my perception of what those automotive workers do, and the skill level of too many of our 'teachers', differs from yours.
Once you feel its necessary to home-school, you are acknowledging a problem exists. The teachers should know more math then the brightest kid in the class. They should know how to handle active kids.
and a large number of those 'line-workers' are assembling some intricate components. My money goes to the talented line-workers over at least half of the teachers i met while interviewing schools for a friend's tyke.
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Old 11-12-2008, 11:39 AM   #12
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Teachers and college professors aside, the fact remains that the U.S. auto manufacturers cannot ultimately survive paying $141,000 to $151,000 for the same labor that the Japanese plants in the U.S. pay $96,000.

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Old 11-12-2008, 12:26 PM   #13
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Why would a person that is snmart enough to go to college and get a teaching degree want to work in such a low paying job...Problem is they don't. So we wind up a few dedicated teachers that love teaching and accept the low pay and a lot of others that we need to question their college education.

If we want to get quality teachers, they have to be paid accordingly. I do not think that the teachers are so under paid as I feel the assembly line workers are grossly over paid.

Teachers still make less than 1/2 of what the Japanese auto workers make.

The American worker has gotten soft and demands to be paid more then their skill level justifies.

That is my 2 cents worth and with if you add 3 cents to that, you will have a nickel. Dust off the soap-box and put it away.

Ken
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Old 11-12-2008, 01:49 PM   #14
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Here is copy of email I sent to my congressman this morning.
Mr.Space: I am writing you to "beg" you and the rest of congress not to give taxpayers money to bail out the auto industry!! Let them do as I have had to with my (small)business. I have not been able to take a paycheck or any benefits for several years; just to help get the business from closing up, and to try to keep my employees in a job. There is no help or bail outs for small business; how can my tax dollars go to help pay the high wages w/benefits to the auto workers and their CEO's? It is definatly a big case of discrimination!! It's just not right! Let them cut costs, wages, benefits, and join the free market like us little guys.
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