Go Back   iRV2 Forums > iRV2.com COMMUNITY FORUMS > Just Conversation
Click Here to Login
Join iRV2 Today

Mission Statement: Supporting thoughtful exchange of knowledge, values and experience among RV enthusiasts.
Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on iRV2
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 03-14-2011, 07:44 AM   #1
Senior Member
 
Shadowcatche's Avatar
 
iRV2 No Limits Club
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,218
Pain at the pump octane boost

It is becoming increasingly painful to fill the tank in my Outback with a 3 L H6 which wants premium but gets mid grade.
I started looking into octane boosters and specifically going after the MSDS sheets to find out exactly what is in each of them. The main ingredient usually 98.5 to 90%, is kerosene. The rest is usually MMT Methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl or in a few cases ferrocene, both without going in to the chemistry, manganese. It is not economically advantageous to use a commercial octane booster, cost eats up the difference.
It would appear that kerosene alone is an octane booster and I use K1 kerosene to heat the garage during the winter using an Eberspacher diesel heater.
A will kerosene harm any of the components in the engine?
B is there a way to tell if it's working, the engine management system keeps it from pinging no matter whether I use regular, midgrade, or premium gas. My thoughts being monitoring some aspect of the OBD II with a scan gauge or OBD scanner.
__________________

__________________
Shadowcatche is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 RV Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

iRV2.com RV Community - Are you about to start a new improvement on your RV or need some help with some maintenance? Do you need advice on what products to buy? Or maybe you can give others some advice? No matter where you fit in you'll find that iRV2 is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with other RV owners, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create an RV blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 03-14-2011, 01:02 PM   #2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 289
shadow, three weeks ago we traded our Forester XT, premium gas needed, for a new OB with the cvt and it sure is nice to be able to put regular regular in it..., we feel your pain. Have you tried regular in the six ?, I cannot imagine it being a huge problem in a non turbo car, especially if your driving is on the restrained side.
__________________

__________________
rough road is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2011, 03:26 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
HMXDave's Avatar
 
Newmar Owners Club
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Central Alberta, Canada
Posts: 245
As an avid snowmobiler and ATV rider, I have several small motors that will not survive on regular gasoline. You are 100% correct that the cost of octane boosters offsets the costs of just going to premium fuel. MOST octane boosters aren't worth the container it comes in. When they advertise that it "raises octane XX points"...it is DECIMAL POINTS, not full octane numbers. A few years ago, a few freinds and I decided to blend our own fuel. Now we were taking premium fuel and going to 96 to 100 octane, but the same would apply to taking regular and going to premium. Anyways....we ended up blending about a gallon of toluene, and a gallon of xylene to 8 gallons of premium. This gave real octane boost increases. (As you can see, a small bottle of magic octane booster really isn't going to do much) Due to the dangers of handling xylene and toluene, we gave up on it and most of us have detuned our motors to survive on a blend of race fuel and premium, or AV gas (LL100) and premium. AV gas is no good for modern cars as it has lead in it still.

Bottom line: I would bite the bullet and burn premium if it will hurt the motor running poor fuel. OR: see if the machine can be programmed with lower timing (and lower performance) to allow the use of lower grade fuel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating
__________________
Dave and Kara - Weekend Warriors 2010 Newmar Bay star 3202, Ford chassis, Ford Ranger Toad, Can Am ATV
Central Alberta, Canada
HMXDave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2011, 03:27 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
Ray,IN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: North America somewhere
Posts: 13,688
Perhaps new engines are different, but in the 90's diesel fuel/kerosene was not compatible with gasoline engines fuel seals, likewise gasoline was not compatible with seals in a diesel fuel system. That would be a question for a Subauru service manager.
__________________
2000 Winnebago Ultimate Freedom USQ40JD, ISC 8.3 Cummins 350, Spartan MM Chassis. USA 1SG, retired;PPA,Good Sam Life member,FMCA."We the people are the rightful masters of both the Congress and the Courts - not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution. "Abraham Lincoln"
Ray,IN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2011, 03:34 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
HMXDave's Avatar
 
Newmar Owners Club
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Central Alberta, Canada
Posts: 245
Kerosene or ATF is added to many "octane boosters" as filler and because octane boosters are very dry. We ran our toluene/xylene concoction on two-stroke motors and always upped the oil usage a bit.

Edit: I found an old blending formulation. I'll paste it here as information, but I honestly do not recommend handling any chemical with an "ene" at the end of it. (Note: R+M/2 is research octane + motor octane / 2....which is how octane is reported at most pumps)

FORMULA 1
Toulene
R+M/2...114
Cost...$2.50/gal
Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium
10%...94.2 Octane
20%...96.4 Octane
30%...98.6 Octane
Notes: Common ingredient in Octane Boosters in a can. 12-16 ounces will only raise octane 2-3 *points*, I.e. from 92 to 92.3. Often costs $3-5 for 12-16 ounces, when it can be purchased for less than $3/gal at chemical supply houses or paint stores.


FORMULA 2
Xylene
R+M/2...117
Cost...$2.75/gal
Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium
10%...94.5 Octane
20%...97.0 Octane
30%...99.5 Octane
Notes: Similar to Toulene. 12-16 ounces will only raise octane 2-3 *points*, I.e. from 92 to 92.3. Usually mixed with Toulene and advertised as *race formula*.

FORMULA 3
Methyl-tertiary-butyl-ether (MTBE)
R+M/2...118
Cost...$3.50/gal
Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium
10%...94.6 Octane
20%...97.2 Octane
30%...99.8 Octane
Notes: Oxygenate. Very common in octane booster products. Has lower BTU content than toulene or xylene, but oxygenate effect makes the gasoline burn better and produce more energy.

FORMULA 4
Methanol or Ethanol
R+M/2...101
Cost...$0.60 - $1.75/gal
Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium
10%...94.3 Octane (Methanol)
10%...94.7 Octane (Ethanol)
20%...Not Recommended
Notes: Methanol is wood alcohol. Ethanol is grain alcohol and found in Gasohol in 10% ratios. Both alcohols are mildly corrosive and will eat gas tank linings, rubber and aluminum if used in excessive ratios. Main ingredient in "Gas Dryers", combines with water.

FORMULA 5
Isopropyl Alcohol and Tertiary Butyl Alcohol
R+M/2...101
Cost...$0.60-$1.50/gal
Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium
10%...94.5 Octane
20%...Not Recommended
30%...Not Recommended
Notes: Similar to Methanol/Ethanol. Isopropyl Alcohol is simply rubbing alcohol.
__________________
Dave and Kara - Weekend Warriors 2010 Newmar Bay star 3202, Ford chassis, Ford Ranger Toad, Can Am ATV
Central Alberta, Canada
HMXDave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2011, 07:25 PM   #6
Senior Member
 
Ray,IN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: North America somewhere
Posts: 13,688
This is kinda off-topic but seems relevant. The EPA has a proposal to blend Ethanol into diesel fuel. I haven't read anything further for about 6 months, but I suspect that would kill older diesel engine fuel systems.
OK, back to gasoline octane requirements for certain engines. If your engine requires premium and you run in on a lower grade gas, sure the ECM will compensate as much as possible to reduce engine damage. It cannot eliminate engine damage even though it reduces effects of the lower grade.
__________________
2000 Winnebago Ultimate Freedom USQ40JD, ISC 8.3 Cummins 350, Spartan MM Chassis. USA 1SG, retired;PPA,Good Sam Life member,FMCA."We the people are the rightful masters of both the Congress and the Courts - not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution. "Abraham Lincoln"
Ray,IN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2011, 07:28 PM   #7
Senior Member
 
Chuck 1935's Avatar
 
Winnebago Owners Club
Freightliner Owners Club
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Shadow Hills,CA 91040
Posts: 3,020
If it says use PREMIUM do it. The repairs will far outweigh any price advantage.
__________________
NOTE; I am not responsible for typos, poor grammer or misspelled word !
04 Itasca, Meridian 34H, 330 Cat/2003 CR V Toad
1933 Ford 3 Window,as seen in Bye Bye Birdie
Pvt. E1 Retired, Shadow Hills,Ca.
Chuck 1935 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2011, 08:25 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
lllkrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,681
As a powertrain systems engineer for a major automotive manufacturer, I can assure you your engine will perform satisfactorily on 87 octane unleaded regular. You may notice a very slight loss in power and mileage but the engine will not be damaged. Today's vehicle engine management systems will re-map all the operating parameters to account for the loss of octane. The premium fuel " requirement " is so the engine will perform at optimum levels and fuel mileage.
__________________
lllkrob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2011, 08:54 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
Chuck 1935's Avatar
 
Winnebago Owners Club
Freightliner Owners Club
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Shadow Hills,CA 91040
Posts: 3,020
Quote:
Originally Posted by lllkrob View Post
As a powertrain systems engineer for a major automotive manufacturer, I can assure you your engine will perform satisfactorily on 87 octane unleaded regular. You may notice a very slight loss inpower and mileage but the engine will not be damaged. Today's vehicle engine management systems will re-map all the operating parameters to account for the loss of octane. The premium fuel " requirement " is so the engine will perform at optimum levels and fuel mileage.
MAJOR CAVEAT : If you don't have Todays systems you could have problems and your fuel milage could be adversly affected.
__________________
NOTE; I am not responsible for typos, poor grammer or misspelled word !
04 Itasca, Meridian 34H, 330 Cat/2003 CR V Toad
1933 Ford 3 Window,as seen in Bye Bye Birdie
Pvt. E1 Retired, Shadow Hills,Ca.
Chuck 1935 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2011, 09:00 PM   #10
TW
Senior Member
 
TW's Avatar
 
Newmar Owners Club
Ford Super Duty Owner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,004
Reg or Super

We always filled our MB with Regular Gas. On the Autobahn in Germany the Difference was not noticeable. They all run way over 120 Miles/h or over 200 kmh. Even on HLN Clark Howard said drive Regular. I did it for years, but after Warranty time!

TW
TW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2011, 09:19 PM   #11
Senior Member
 
Dirtbuster's Avatar
 
Fleetwood Owners Club
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 272
My BMW says Premium only, as in 93 octane. Anything less, & she don't run or idle correctly. When she don't run right, she gets very expensive.

Only the good stuff for her!
__________________
Dirtbuster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2011, 09:26 PM   #12
Senior Member
 
lllkrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,681
The OP stated he had a Subaru Outback with a 3.0 liter H6 engine. This engine was introduced in Subaru vehicles in 2004 and is fully OBDII compliant. Therefore it will run on 87 octane unleaded fuel without engine damage. It is one of TODAYS engines.
__________________
lllkrob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2011, 09:48 PM   #13
TW
Senior Member
 
TW's Avatar
 
Newmar Owners Club
Ford Super Duty Owner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,004
All our Rental cars get Reg, even it is a Premium gas engine. Noway do I put that stuff in a Rental car. My own cars liked it and here in Canada I just drive the speed limit, but not on the Autobahn
BMW cuts out at 250 kmh and we always reach it. OK - we slow down to 249 kmh

TW
TW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2011, 11:05 PM   #14
Senior Member
 
Meandering Retiree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Illinois
Posts: 403
Our Mini Cooper "requires" premium...I filled it with regular and quickly figured out that running premium costs me less than 1 cent a mile more per mile and the engine runs better and much more powerfully. Just my 2 cents worth. :-)
__________________

__________________
Meandering Retiree is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Help me understand this heat pump zippo Winnebago Industries Owner's Forum 12 01-17-2011 09:01 AM
Huei pump failure mycoolbeans Caterpillar Engine Forum 8 11-18-2010 09:40 PM
Water Pump will not shut off nplenzick Monaco Owner's Forum 2 11-15-2010 05:28 AM
Better Location for Coach Water Pump resqguy Winnebago Industries Owner's Forum 4 08-10-2010 10:21 AM
Water pump running on city water deadeye916 RV Systems & Appliances 9 04-19-2010 08:41 PM

» Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.