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Old 08-12-2009, 10:14 AM   #43
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RV'rs, particularly full time RV'rs, do not live in a vacuum. Witness (for example) the effect that economic conditions have on: a.) problems RV'rs encounter getting parts and maintenance from companies that have gone out of business; b.) problems RV'rs encounter with spiraling increases in fuel expenses; c.) problems RV'rs encounter when facing increasing campground costs and even diminishing boondocking availability; d.) problems RV'rs are facing relative to shrinking retirement nest eggs meant to support their RV lifestyle; e.) problems RV'rs are facing relative to their insurance costs (vehicle, health, etc.); f.) concerns RV'rs have with our nations infrastructure issues (ie., conditions of highways, bridges, etc.); and so on.

No! We don't live in a vacuum. RV'rs are a community of folks who should be able to politely discuss matters impacting our common interests. As long as we are polite, and honor other RV'rs points of view, we should be free to talk with each other.

Labeling others who are earnestly attempting to politely discuss factors they believe directly affect our RV lifestyle is a morally dishonest and sinister means of controlling other peoples ideas. "Labeling", then, just as discussions having to do with "politics" and "religion", should also be banned by our iRV2 moderators, or at least, cautions issued.

On a lighter note.....BOY, ya ought to hear the songs of the meadowlarks this bright sunny morning here on the prairie in South Dakota. Makes your heart soar!!! Steve
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Old 08-12-2009, 10:32 AM   #44
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On a lighter note.....BOY, ya ought to hear the songs of the meadowlarks this bright sunny morning here on the prairie in South Dakota. Makes your heart soar!!!
We've been hearing the song of the Chickadee a lot lately also.
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Old 08-12-2009, 10:56 AM   #45
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Thank goodness the birds can still sing FREELY! At least till they're outlawed. But,..... I got your point. Bye. Steve
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Old 08-12-2009, 02:19 PM   #46
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I get all the political discussion I can handle just listening to talk shows,ie: Sunday networks and PBS. I think I have listened to most every cogent view/opinion of the health care issue possible.
I think I'll just grab another cold one and forget things I can't personally change.
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Old 08-12-2009, 08:38 PM   #47
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I get all the political discussion I can handle just listening to talk shows,ie: Sunday networks and PBS. I think I have listened to most every cogent view/opinion of the health care issue possible.
I think I'll just grab another cold one and forget things I can't personally change.
The only difference is that while on forums you can get to personally know people even though they come from diverse backgrounds and locations. Having the ability to hear their viewpoints that are effected by those differences can be fascinating. It is a lot different then talking to your chums from your same neighborhood about politics or religion or hearing it from the same people who are just mouthpieces on TV or radio. Those guys can drive me bonkers.

On a boat forum I have belonged to for a long time which is based in England there is a part of the forum hidden from public viewing unless you register and sign onto it. In that part of the foum much more diverse topics are allowed. I have learned a lot from the people in that forum who live in england, spain, ireland, as they have learned from me living here in california. Friendships have been gained. There is rarely if ever a lack of civility and only at that point does intervention occur. The social and economic backgrounds of boaters and rv'rs can be similar, so that sort of opportunity here could work too i think.

I like the way this forum is operated but think that providing a way for adults who do have a comfort level with each other built upon years of talking would be a good addition.
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Old 08-13-2009, 05:46 AM   #48
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Thank goodness the birds can still sing FREELY! At least till they're outlawed. But,..... I got your point. Bye. Steve
No real point, Steve. Just a little humor.
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Old 08-13-2009, 08:25 AM   #49
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Route 66:

Oh. Thought you were nicely pointing out that I shouldn't continue contributing to this exchange.

Ray,IN:

The thing is Ray, that you CAN personally change things by participating and offering your ideas and thoughts, and, just as important if not more so, by listening to and gaining an understanding of the ideas and thoughts of others.

Why bother?? Well,.....the tag at the end of all your posts describes precisely the REASON. We all need to make the effort to talk WITH each other (not AT each other) about important matters and issues affecting our RV'ing lifestyles.....OR.....the "oppression" talked about in your tag, WILL come to pass.

(Incidentally, for those here who don't want such a discussion as part of this forum,... yet, who, for some reason, "clicked" here anyway to read this thread, ......this "stuff" DOES pertain to RV'rs and Rv'ing. In fact as FatDog pointed out so well above, RV'rs, just as the boaters FatDog mentioned, likely have a broader perspective on such issues than folks living in one spot, simply because RV'rs talk with, and meet with others from ALL OVER our nation!!).
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Old 08-13-2009, 03:39 PM   #50
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Ray,IN:

The thing is Ray, that you CAN personally change things by participating and offering your ideas and thoughts, and, just as important if not more so, by listening to and gaining an understanding of the ideas and thoughts of others.

Why bother?? Well,.....the tag at the end of all your posts describes precisely the REASON. We all need to make the effort to talk WITH each other (not AT each other) about important matters and issues affecting our RV'ing lifestyles.....OR.....the "oppression" talked about in your tag, WILL come to pass.

(Incidentally, for those here who don't want such a discussion as part of this forum,... yet, who, for some reason, "clicked" here anyway to read this thread, ......this "stuff" DOES pertain to RV'rs and Rv'ing. In fact as FatDog pointed out so well above, RV'rs, just as the boaters FatDog mentioned, likely have a broader perspective on such issues than folks living in one spot, simply because RV'rs talk with, and meet with others from ALL OVER our nation!!).
I think with few exceptions we can speak civilly to each other. I've had some heated discussions here and haven't had any problems. I've actually become friendly with some with entirely opposing views.
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Old 08-13-2009, 04:24 PM   #51
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I like the way this forum is operated but think that providing a way for adults who do have a comfort level with each other built upon years of talking would be a good addition.
Absolutely not. I'm part of a motorcycle forum that has been nearly ruined by what's called a LEPR (Law, Ethics, Politics, Religion.) which has been nothing more than an area to cause hard feelings, start arguments that leak to the main forum, and leach energy from the main forum into LEPR.

I really like iRV2 as it is. Creating a place for people to start sharpening their claws would be a mistake IMHO. Those topics never stay civil, and most always give people ammo to snipe with months later if that's what it takes. The people that want it should join a dedicated forum for such hot button topics.

Something I learned growing up, if you have friends and want to keep those friends never discuss politics or religion. You'll both find reasons not to like each other and will never change the others mind.
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Old 08-13-2009, 05:32 PM   #52
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It's been my experience that people often live up to one's expectation, and almost always live down to one's expectations. And so, I think we should stubbornly expect civil behavior, no matter how often we're disappointed. Putting topics off limits is giving in to lowering expectations, and gives veto power to those who find simple civility to much to master.

But the over-ridding consideration here, I believe, is the workload on the volunteer moderators, which would be greatly increased by such topics (sadly). Since we are guests, not paying customers, it just wouldn't be right to ask that they add so much time and effort.

But I do have a small suggestion (to the person who bought the forum software). Ask for a feature that would simply detect those all, or almost all, caps postings, and only post after the writer uses proper capitalization. If it shows a message that makes clear it was the software (not a person) it's less likely to offend. All caps, on any topic, are really annoying, and hard to read.
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Old 08-13-2009, 05:53 PM   #53
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It's been my experience that people often live up to one's expectation, and almost always live down to one's expectations. And so, I think we should stubbornly expect civil behavior, no matter how often we're disappointed. Putting topics off limits is giving in to lowering expectations, and gives veto power to those who find simple civility to much to master.

But the over-ridding consideration here, I believe, is the workload on the volunteer moderators, which would be greatly increased by such topics (sadly). Since we are guests, not paying customers, it just wouldn't be right to ask that they add so much time and effort.

But I do have a small suggestion (to the person who bought the forum software). Ask for a feature that would simply detect those all, or almost all, caps postings, and only post after the writer uses proper capitalization. If it shows a message that makes clear it was the software (not a person) it's less likely to offend. All caps, on any topic, are really annoying, and hard to read.
Lots of wisdom there... I have found over the years that the general demeanor of a forum dictates the behavior of new members. If a member is unusually snarky, argumentative or trolly, long time members will either apply peer pressure on threads to change the behavior of report the posts to moderators and sometimes more subtly, just ignore that member. No responses shut down discussions (cyber-shunning). Expecting polite posting works slowly and overtime to build a nice community.

I have also belonged to (and moderated) boards that had a section where politics, religion or off-color posting was allowed and invariably it slopped over into other sections of the forum - sort of like an leaky black tank; slow but insidious.

As far as the suggestion about caps... we actually have this tool with our new software (which is the internet version of shouting) and I can check on enabling it.
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Old 08-13-2009, 06:08 PM   #54
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Absolutely not. I'm part of a motorcycle forum that has been nearly ruined by what's called a LEPR (Law, Ethics, Politics, Religion.) which has been nothing more than an area to cause hard feelings, start arguments that leak to the main forum, and leach energy from the main forum into LEPR.

I really like iRV2 as it is. Creating a place for people to start sharpening their claws would be a mistake IMHO. Those topics never stay civil, ...
I thought about addressing that delicate area in my post above but ouldn't figure out how to do it ... well .. delicately.

I also belong to a motorcycle forum, a yacht forum, a boat forum, N.O.W. forum (for the brave man who like to debate ), and a gun forum.

my intended point:
There are just some forums out there flat out not suitable, or not likely candidates, IMHO, to putting in these additional areas for discussing 'optional' topics. These include most of the gun or motorcycle forums that I enjoy otherwise. Since i am a happy and longterm participant of some of these forums I can say that I feel there are too many chest-up-in-the-air attituders in 'some' of that genre of forum.

What makes a boatie, or in my opinion a RV'r, forum at least a candidate for a successful 'optional' area for expressing views in gentile conversation is the makeup of the people that participate.

The boat/yacht forum I belong to is MANY times larger then iRV2 and attracts a diverse age and economic makeup, yet substantially everyone there still is inclined to be on their better behavior .
I would hope that this high-class forum iRV2 would be the same. I feel that it is based upon my many years of participation here. This place has alwys been pretty mellow and respectful.
Frankly, i haven't always seen quite the same level of respect at the motorcycle forum I have visited most in the past dozen years. I have not participated in a lot of those so please pardon me if my opinion does not math yours. Absolutely No offense intended.

and like Chickadee and I have previously surmised ... the value of the traveling nature of RV'rs is vast and holds a lot of valued opinions,
and as i have struggled to say in this post ... the general temperment in a laidback RV or yacht forum can be a positive factor in more diverse topic discussing as well.
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Old 08-13-2009, 06:19 PM   #55
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....
I have also belonged to (and moderated) boards that had a section where politics, religion or off-color posting was allowed and invariably it slopped over into other sections of the forum - sort of like an leaky black tank; slow but insidious.

......
Sounds so very ominous.

The very large forun i belong to that has a seperate registration required area for off-topic not only DOES NOT allow those topics from "slopping over" (as you call it, not my shared opinion) to the main forum area,
BUT ..
it also does not allow the main forum topics (boat/yacht) from being discussed in the 'OTHER' area.

This is important in both directions and they are adament on following both. And the natives know it well and follow it. that way no one who doesn't want to view 'OTHER' sort of topics will do so in an effort to see if there is any otherwise pertinent boat stuff also being discussed there. Any legitimate boat issues accidently posted there are deleted immediatly. Odd but, as you might guess, it works.

And like I said earlier that forum is very very large. Tried and tested.
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Old 08-13-2009, 08:44 PM   #56
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No offense taken FD. The forum in question was a great forum, more like family. Then the election came along and the LEPR topics that were allowed in the open forum got out of hand. Instead of stopping it they created a subforum where you had to enter a password. Well and good, but arguments got heated in there, and people claimed they were being censored when fights were broken up. Then those same arguments continued outside.

My experience is that it doesn't work, least not in my opinion, worth every penny you paid for it. When people get cranked up about such subjects the off switch tends to fail, as does their tact and manners. I left RV.net because of chest puffing jackholes, I don't see that here and really would hate to see an arena where it would be allowed to flourish.

But you have a broader range of forums, so I'll concede to your experience. I hope I didn't offend in any way either.
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