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Old 08-21-2011, 01:51 PM   #29
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Investing in stock is different from speculation in commodities. When one buys stock in a company, you are essentially loaning money to the company issuing the stock.
Uh, I believe this is incorrect

When you buy a share of stock, you are buying part of the company that issued the stock the company does not see any of those funds unless you buy the stock from the company reserve (which doesn't happen very often)....Any change in the value of the stock, is "speculative" on the basis of what the street believes the company is worth and any profit or loss is taken by the owner of the stock.

Now, when stock is isued for the first time, (an IPO) the original price of the shares goes directly to the company, not a loan, but buying that piece of the company...IPO prices are initially fixed by the company, but after they are gone, then the speculators take over.
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Old 08-21-2011, 01:56 PM   #30
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There are posts on here that make me proud to be among such enlightened group of People Bravo!!!!!!!!!
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Old 08-21-2011, 02:14 PM   #31
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Bernie is the last honest man in Washington, when he leaves I hope he turns off the light!
Not honest enough to run as a Socialist (he calls himself Independent but gets elected essentially as a Democrat, upon whom he depends for committee assignments, etc.), and not honest enough to run from New York, where he really resides.

All that said, I am disappointed that I haven't actually been able to find the information he released. I don't lose any love on speculators.
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Old 08-21-2011, 02:19 PM   #32
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Now, when stock is isued for the first time, (an IPO) the original price of the shares goes directly to the company, not a loan, but buying that piece of the company...IPO prices are initially fixed by the company, but after they are gone, then the speculators take over.
Well, sort of. Most companies actually buy and sell their own stock on an active basis, so the price the street is paying for their stock essentially determines how much a company can raise for such things as expansion, acquisitions, etc. Most thoroughly solvent companies have a price at which they start buying their stock back; usually, it's the book value of their physical assets. And, should a buyer wish to acquire a company, he generally has to buy up at least a controlling percentage of their stock, thus cementing the value of both the company and the stock.
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Old 08-21-2011, 05:50 PM   #33
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Uh, I believe this is incorrect

When you buy a share of stock, you are buying part of the company that issued the stock the company does not see any of those funds unless you buy the stock from the company reserve (which doesn't happen very often)....Any change in the value of the stock, is "speculative" on the basis of what the street believes the company is worth and any profit or loss is taken by the owner of the stock.

Now, when stock is isued for the first time, (an IPO) the original price of the shares goes directly to the company, not a loan, but buying that piece of the company...IPO prices are initially fixed by the company, but after they are gone, then the speculators take over.
Note I said "essentially." The point is the cost of the stock has little to do with the cost of the company's product(s) whereas commodity speculation has a huge effect on the cost of the product without doing anything to change the value.
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Old 08-21-2011, 06:26 PM   #34
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Note I said "essentially." The point is the cost of the stock has little to do with the cost of the company's product(s) whereas commodity speculation has a huge effect on the cost of the product without doing anything to change the value.
And THERE you have the basic, essential truth on the subject - in a single sentence!
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Old 08-21-2011, 09:12 PM   #35
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Not honest enough to run as a Socialist (he calls himself Independent but gets elected essentially as a Democrat, upon whom he depends for committee assignments, etc.), and not honest enough to run from New York, where he really resides.

All that said, I am disappointed that I haven't actually been able to find the information he released. I don't lose any love on speculators.
I assume you either live in New Hampshire or are Bernie's neighbor in New York, and I don't have first hand knowledge of his residency I will defer to you on that, since I'm sure you have said proof
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Old 08-21-2011, 09:42 PM   #36
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Likewise, oil speculators:

Produce NOTHING.
Transport NOTHING.
Refine NOTHING.
Receive, store, market and deliver NOTHING.

All they do, is sit back, and (usually!) count their profits.
What they do, however, is provide cash and a ready market to companies producing oil. Especially with future purchase contracts, they provide a level of financial security and planning for producers.

Trading in stocks is no different -- after all, except for when the company sells shares, the money is just going between two speculators, neither of which have done anything to improve the value of the company. Buying and selling Apple stock, for example, puts no money in Apple's bank account. Now there are arguably secondary effects that benefit Apple, but at its core, trading in stocks -- or bonds, unless you are buying them at original issue and holding them to maturity -- is still mad, destructive capitalism.

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Old 08-21-2011, 09:57 PM   #37
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What they do, however, is provide cash and a ready market to companies producing oil. Especially with future purchase contracts, they provide a level of financial security and planning for producers.
As I understand the oil commodities market, the speculators are required to only put up 10% of the total amount they bid on a given oil offering - THEN, they pay nothing more until the maturity of that bid - AND, if the market has DROPPED since the initial bid, the speculator can simply default and walk away from the final purchase - losing only the initial 10% "down payment".

Wouldn't we LOVE to gamble that way in Las Vegas - pay only 10% of your bet - if you WIN your hand, you get the whole face value of your bet, but if you LOSE, you only lose the initial 10%...

What a deal - Las Vegas is smarter than that - too bad WE'RE not!
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Old 08-22-2011, 09:09 AM   #38
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My understanding is that the price at the pump is controlled by the availability of finished product. At the height of the price crisis in 08-09 there were tankers holding oil parked offshore waiting for the price to go up. Our country is woefully short of production capacity. We import finished product. There is no shortage of crude. This is my opinion any opposing views are welcome.
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