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Old 07-31-2009, 09:50 PM   #29
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Donavon: "Universal health care in the US will create a huge medical industry, fantastic hospitals, and premium care for those that can afford it. In Mexico."

A guy flew his plane to Mexico. While taxiing his plane around the airport he drove into a trench that had been cut to install some new utilities. He sued the airport. Judge told him, "Meester, when you come to Mexico, and you see a hole, it is a hole. Don't fall in it. And if you do fall in it, don't expect somebody else to pay you for your injuries."
They know how to handle stupid lawsuits in Mexico.

Mexico would like nothing better than for the US to nationalize medicine. Nurses getting the princely sum of $5/hour- WOO HOO!!!! The border would be lined w/hospitals for gringos stuck on medical wait lists in their home country.
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Old 07-31-2009, 10:29 PM   #30
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Interesting Discussion:
1. For Jack R: Thank you for your service: I earned mine with 29 years of active duty.
Millions without healthcare. Who are they? Who did inventory? Anyone in this country (legally or not) cannot be refused care at a hospital emergency room. Inefficient? you bet.
Please understand:: There are folks that need and cannot afford healthcare and although it's expensive and inefficient we need to provide for them. And we do!! Without re-inventing the wheel why not use an "Urgent care program" to pick up that portion of our people in that dire situation., or Government subsidized insurance at that level...

We have a good healthcare system that needs repair, several previous posts have touched intelligently on improvements to remove waste, tort reform, and to improve efficiency. Others want a totally revamped, inefficient, metered, socialized, and rationed system. Not a mention of responsibilty, just "free", "deserve" __(Do something that the legislators won't do, Read what is proposed..there is a lot more going on than changes to health care. In 5 to 9 years all private health insurance will be gone.)
If you are happy with the health care you have, rest assurred it will CHANGE. Everyone will have the same, just less of it. Just think about Government bail-outs, stimulus waste, ownership and control of Stock brokers, auto companies, Insurance companies, Banks, Barney-Maes, Mortgages, executive salaries and bonuses,company profits, , and now add health care. Inefficient,--- even more so.
If the government run health care is so good, why did Congress exempt themselves from the program? (No politics intended) and why does Government run healthcare have to be called Public Heathcare?
Just think about no restriction on pre-existing conditions. Why buy insurance, wait until you are admitted to the hospital then buy that medical insurance. Maybe my car insurance can work the same way. Buy insurance from the tow truck driver after the accident. I'm sure the insurance companies will line up to sell you that policy.
If I do have health care that I have earned through sacrifice, hard work and responsiblity, am I still a greedy low life if I want that private room instead of sharing a fold-up cot under the carport??? (By the way--West Florida Hospital in Pensacola only has single private rooms, no extra charge.)
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Old 08-01-2009, 09:49 AM   #31
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Recently a new private hospital was built near us. One of the owners and board members of the hospital lives on the back of our subdivision. It is a fairly small hospital, but is adding on already. It has nothing but private rooms and the decor will rival 5 star hotels. The kitchen is more like room service in that you can call down shortly before meal time and order what you want within the Doctors diet restrictions.

The neighbor Doctor said that this small hospital is writing off several million dollars a month in uninsured treatments that they have no hope of ever recovering.

The lobby looks like the lobby of a Crowne Plaza and has a coffee shop run like Starbucks.

Does a hospital need this decor to provide quality medical care...NO. But you also need better than a cot under a tin building. Think of the money that could have been used elsewhere in the hospital if they did not have such lavish decor.

When I was growing up and first starting to work, the insurance did not pay for office calls less your co-pay. You paid the first bit out of pocket and then once you met your deductible, you were reimbursed at 80% of your cost. You were provided a room at a reimbursed rate for a semi-private room and you paid the difference for a private room.

We are hit with two things now, the high cost of anything medically related and also, people have come to EXPECT to get everything paid with nothing out of pocket. To do this, the insurance companies have to charge more for premiums, which makes us fuss.

This system is bordering on a system where everything is included in a single fee. So the healthy wind up paying more so that the unhealthy can be provided coverage for the same rates. This works OK for the people with enough money to pay for the insurance. But the lower wage earners are left out because it is just too expensive.

We still need some sort of coverage that will provide for the lower-earning people to get a decent level of medical care. Those that can afford better can pay more and get the "premium" coverage they have come to expect.

I all boils down to the old...We have met the enemy and it is us ... statement.

I need to get a new soap box ... this one is getting worn out.

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Old 08-01-2009, 04:23 PM   #32
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First of all, I have to object to the title line of this thread (and initial post). No one, at least on the proponent side, has suggested "free" anything. This is a classic "Straw man". What is being proposed is that we need to have Universal Healthcare Coverage before we can even hope to get costs under control.

Why is it so difficult for some to comprehend that when people put off doctor visits due to lack of insurance until they wind up in Emergency Rooms, it costs our system much more than regular care. There are many situations where better, universal care costs less.

Not doing healthcare reform does not save the money that opponents like to claim is the cost of the proposed reform, it merely means we pay it in different ways, like higher hospital rates and higher insurance premiums. There is no free lunch, but reform offers the only chance of reducing our costs in the long run.

Another point that has been overlooked - about 1% of women are pregnant at any time so each year there must currently be around 100,000 uninsured pregnancies. The poorest of these may be covered by Medicaid but surely thousands are not. Surely pro-choice and pro-life alike should be horrified that these women face the financial coercion of the medical costs of childbirth (>$10,000 I believe) versus only a few hundred for an abortion. I am astonished that the pro-life movement hasn't made an issue of this. Universal Coverage fixes this problem, yet most pro-lifers apparently are opposing reform - go figure.
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Old 08-01-2009, 05:16 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by jspande View Post
First of all, I have to object to the title line of this thread (and initial post). No one, at least on the proponent side, has suggested "free" anything. This is a classic "Straw man". What is being proposed is that we need to have Universal Healthcare Coverage before we can even hope to get costs under control.

Why is it so difficult for some to comprehend that when people put off doctor visits due to lack of insurance until they wind up in Emergency Rooms, it costs our system much more than regular care. There are many situations where better, universal care costs less.

Not doing healthcare reform does not save the money that opponents like to claim is the cost of the proposed reform, it merely means we pay it in different ways, like higher hospital rates and higher insurance premiums. There is no free lunch, but reform offers the only chance of reducing our costs in the long run.

Another point that has been overlooked - about 1% of women are pregnant at any time so each year there must currently be around 100,000 uninsured pregnancies. The poorest of these may be covered by Medicaid but surely thousands are not. Surely pro-choice and pro-life alike should be horrified that these women face the financial coercion of the medical costs of childbirth (>$10,000 I believe) versus only a few hundred for an abortion. I am astonished that the pro-life movement hasn't made an issue of this. Universal Coverage fixes this problem, yet most pro-lifers apparently are opposing reform - go figure.
well said
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Old 08-02-2009, 11:45 AM   #34
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Poppycock!
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Old 08-02-2009, 12:01 PM   #35
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If you think that government takeover of our health care system is a good idea, you might want to do some more research.

http://www.dotmed.com/news/story/9781

This would be just the tip of the iceberg folks. Sure we have problems now, but if you have a fly in the house and you use a shotgun to kill it, you may or may not kill the fly, but you most assuridly will end up with bigger problems.

Also see http://tinyurl.com/lxymlk
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Old 08-02-2009, 12:52 PM   #36
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Universal Coverage fixes this problem, yet most pro-lifers apparently are opposing reform - go figure.
This "problem" that you speak of would not be fixed by free health care provided by the governemt. It would actually make the problem worse. You see, we choose to get pregnant (or make someone pregnant as the case may be). When we make this choice, our financial priorities (if we are responsible adults) change.

This pregnancy and later the child becomes our number one financial responsibility. We need to bear whatever we are able to bear of the cost of the pregnancy, and later raising the child, based on our ability to pay. And if our ability to pay is zero, then we don't need to become pregnant, or make someone pregnant. To do so is irresponsible, and the government would simply be promoting irresponsible behavior. Ultimately this cycle of depending on government to do for us what we sould be doing for ourselves starts over again, and it is the children who suffer. Surely you care about children.

If a woman is irresponsible and finds herself pregnant with no abilty to pay for treatment during pregnancy or for the childberth, and she either isn't sure who the father is, or she knows he is also unable to meet his responsibilities, she has a muriad of options. Abortion is always going to be the quickest and most convienient, and nothing is ever going to change that. You make it very easy to point out the fallacy of your argument when you advocate the government stepping in to cover the fiancial consequences of voluntary behavior.

When you say "universal healthcare fixxes all that" you need to add "and they all lived happily ever after".
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Old 08-02-2009, 01:43 PM   #37
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I think we should limit all health care for anyone who smokes, drinks, eats too much and/or gets pregnant. All of these abnormalities in lifestyle and behavior are self induced and should be punished.

I also think we should sterilize anyone who has a child they can not afford to raise without outside financial help. I also think we should euthanize anyone over 65 who has not saved enough money to financially support them self in retirement. The people that fall into these categories made inappropriate life choices.

I do not believe that we should allow illegal aliens in our schools or provide them with any governmental benefits such as welfare, Medicaid, Medicare, education, un-employment and/or social security benefits because they knew that those benefits were only planned to be part of citizenship.

We should not provide health care to anyone who is serving time in prison, they knew what they were doing when they did it and should suffer all of the consequences.

If we do all of the above, we will only need to insure 10 % of the population!

You see, you can not legislate behavior and we never will!

Poor actions that are rewarded will only promote more poor actions. Give free health care and people will abuse it, period. Make it a decision to spend or not spend and they will use it more wisely. Everyone should pay something for insurance and a co-payment for every service they receive up to a maximum annual out of pocket based on their income.

The cost of health care will not go down under any universal system, it will go up. In countries with a universal system, they pay an average of 50% in personal income tax. In those countries the universal plan is acceptable, but not great. In all of those countries, private insurance has boomed in the last several years, for those that have money will seek a separate private insurance to supplement the universal plan, this moves you to the front of the line!

This is really not a debate, it is a pitiful situation. Universal health care will help people receive more healthcare at an overall much higher cost, it is a fact!

Is it needed?

When was the last time you read a news story about someone in this country dying do to lack of access to health care (never). If they were, do you not think the proponents of a universal plan would be talking about it and keeping it on the front page of the liberal press?
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Old 08-02-2009, 02:12 PM   #38
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You see, we choose to get pregnant (or make someone pregnant as the case may be).
If only that were true. But the reality is that so many are "unwanted" and that is where the problem lies. The fact that this demonstrates irresponsible actions doesn't change the fact the when these "unwanted" pregnancies occur and are uninsured, there is a financial incentive amounting to thousands of dollars to have an abortion. Insurance coverage is the best and only fix we have to this perverse situation.
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Old 08-02-2009, 02:32 PM   #39
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When was the last time you read a news story about someone in this country dying do to lack of access to health care (never). If they were, do you not think the proponents of a universal plan would be talking about it and keeping it on the front page of the liberal press?
In fact it's been widely reported that the Infant Mortality Rate for the USA is much higher than other industrialized nations that have universal Health Care. The rate for the USA is 6.3 infant deaths per 1000 births, while for example France (Single Payer System) has a rate of 4.2. Now France does not have better doctors or better hospitals than the US. The explanation for the difference is universal coverage in France. The best doctor in the world can't save patients who can't afford to see him.

So just do the math. There are just over 4 million births in the USA each year, and the difference between US and France is 2.1 more deaths per 1000 for the US. That comes to 8,400 infants each year the die because we do not do as well as France. That's 8,400 infants dying do to lack of access to health care each year (hardly "never").

One further point - many opponents of reform, particularly in Congress, are saying "What's the rush?" and we should delay. 8,400 deaths per year is 700 infant deaths per month that could be prevented. So how many months do you think we should delay?
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Old 08-02-2009, 02:56 PM   #40
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*** in part*** The explanation for the difference is universal coverage in France.
So just do the math. That's 8,400 infants dying do to lack of access to health care each year
Interesting logic . . . could there be other factors leading to infant mortality beside lack of a freebie health care plan?

For example, if the US had more accessible health care, would the crack moms become more responsible? Would the ignorant become more intelligent?

And maybe, just maybe, those who would normally choose abortion would chose life! So many little lives could be saved.
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Old 08-02-2009, 03:17 PM   #41
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Actually I chose France rather than other countries in the list to make the comparison more valid. France has a significant immigrant community (from Africa) and it does not have a Socialized Medical System (it's a Single Payer System where the reimbursement part is government but doctors and hospitals are private, unlike England where doctors are government employees...)

I suppose if I'd wanted to go for spectacular numbers I could have used the figures for Iceland which are around twice as low as France, but I don't feel there's a good demographic match to the US.

BTW, the whole list I used is from the Wikipedia (Google "infant mortality"), and you'll notice the US even ranks below Cuba!
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Old 08-02-2009, 03:26 PM   #42
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And again, where does this "freebie health care plan" phrase come from. No one has proposed any sort of "freebie". Everyone would get (and pay premiums for) health insurance. There will be subsidies to help those who can't afford to pay the full amount of the premiums.
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