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Old 05-24-2012, 01:27 PM   #337
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wyntaxman

You have hit the nail squarely on the head! Lack of individual accountability is, in my opinion also, at the very root of the Social Security problems AND is the genesis of our general societies (government) problems.
Thank you for your post!
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But don't you think that all of this boils down to the one major fault within our society. No one is accountable anymore. All through our society there is no accountability. Drunk drivers sue the bar that "allowed" them to get drunk. I recently got sued by a guy because I wouldn't prepare a fraudulent tax return for him. It wasn't his fault that he was a crook and got caught, it was my fault that he got caught. Those who still smoke do so knowing that someone else will take care of them. The same goes for the obese, the drunk, and the drugged out. If there was one thing that could help this country the most it would be accountability for one's own actions.
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Old 05-24-2012, 01:31 PM   #338
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Interesting article in USAToday. Especially the last sentance. Real federal deficit dwarfs official tally
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Old 05-24-2012, 01:37 PM   #339
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The only way to fix the SS & Medicare system is to put all the Senaters, Congress & even the President on it with us poor people!!!!! I bet that it wouldn't be in the shape it is in now. Also I think that there should be a term limit to 4 years and they need to stay out for one term before they can run again and only can hold office two terms and then it's back to making money the hard way. That's my 2 cents!!!!!
Paw, those people do pay the SS tax. Problem is, they can get away with not depending on the payments due to other financial gains. I don't know who said it, but a while back some politician said, "You don't need to be a crook to get rich while in congress, but you are an idiot if you aren't by the time you are out." I've been told they get free medical for life - don't know that's true - if so, that should go. And, eliminate the 'retirement' funding too.

A STATESMAN should see the job as a duty, not a career.

Another thing, if people are going to set up a mandatory medical system run by the government (pahtooie) they by God, THEY get to live with it - NOTHING more, nothing less. NO EXEMPTIONS ! The President does not get to pick and choose who is exempt from the law. On ANY LAW !
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Old 05-24-2012, 03:57 PM   #340
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LadyFitz, if you go back to one of my earlier posts you will see that you need only survive for at least five years after reaching age 66 to get back all that you paid in and probably more than you paid in. Nowhere in the SS program is there any reference to earning interest. Again a major part of the problem is that the politicians have told people that this is an annuity when, in fact, it is just another tax, and pretty much a redistribution of wealth.
I didn't say anything about SS earning interest. If I had invested the money SS took from me, it would have earned interest. And the money I would be getting back from that would last far longer than just the amount SS took from me (I probably could live off just the interest alone, along with my pension). If SS can't deliver what was promised (never mind the 14 months they've already screwed me out of), then I feel I should get back all that they took from me plus the interest I could have earned on that money all the time they were mishandling it.
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Old 05-24-2012, 06:55 PM   #341
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I support removing the cap and/or having a substantially lower rate for any amount over the cap. So 15% (combined) for all dollars up to the cap and perhaps 3%-5% for amounts over the cap. If the rate is reasonable most people making that kind of money will accept it.
Figure this one is worth jumping ahead for...
We all have our own interests, and our own things that are near and dear...

In my case, I own a small business. I all ready pay DOUBLE the SS tax than rest of you on my W2 wages.

Taking another 15%, or even 5, from my SubS income, rental income, and dividends would be a HUGE tax increase for me.
Particularly when my income is way down due to this eonomy, and my real property is worth a fraction of what I owe on it.
It might be "fair", but it sure would hurt.

While we are talking about closing loopholes, how about elimination the mortgage interest deduction?
In reality, that is nothing but a direct federal subsidy to the banks, and heck, it could be argued that they got us into this current mess
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:32 PM   #342
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In my case, I own a small business. I all ready pay DOUBLE the SS tax than rest of you on my W2 wages.
You pay the same, it is just that other worker's employers pay half directly. They would much rather increase the employees check and have them pay the same way as you do. It is part of the cost of having an employee just like their insurance, Medicare/Medicaid, unemployment compensation fees, and the like. You don't see that money either, but it is a cost of having an employee.
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Old 05-24-2012, 07:46 PM   #343
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While we are talking about closing loopholes, how about elimination the mortgage interest deduction? In reality, that is nothing but a direct federal subsidy to the banks, and heck, it could be argued that they got us into this current mess
Totally agree. Why should I have to pay a high tax rate some someone who CHOSE to buy a house gets a deduction. Why should I pay a higher rate so someone who CHOSE to have kids can have a deduction for having them and then educating them? Life is full of choices and they have consequences.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:04 AM   #344
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I fail to see how SS can be considered entitlement after one has been paying into it most of their lives! If anyone wants to cut my benefits, how about just eliminating them and give me a full refund of what I paid into the system, plus the interest I could have earned had the government not had it?
LadyFitz, I understand your logic and don't really disagree with you. The issue is that the politicians have told us for years that SS was our retirement. It really is just another tax. The idea of letting everyone invest their own retirement funds is great....in theory. The reason I say that is human nature is inherently greedy. People will take risks that they shouldn't. The lottery is the perfect example as well as Enron and Bernie Madoff. People will take chances that they shouldn't. I have one client who is well into his 70's and he is still 100% in the market. He's too greedy to get out. How many people do you think would have jumped on the high interest rate of Greek bonds? Now those bonds would be worthless.


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I think this method give a hugely inaccurate number. The employer portion should be counted as it is income earned by the employee, just paid in by the employer. I would much rather skip the paperwork and give it to the employee. If the employee got the full amount and invested it as I did with my own investments, then there would be compound interest. The first dollar I ever paid into SS would be worth about $60 today. The money that I have in my retirement funds are many multiples above what I actually put in (have to look at inflation also) and so would my social security. But I think your statement is very misleading. Employer side, compound interest and inflation must all be taken into account in any fair analysis.

Lindsay, I agree that the idea of not including the employer portion or inflation or interest may not present a totally accurate picture. Like you I would rather give my employees the SS match that I have to make, but the government loves to hide taxes that people have to pay by making them part of someone else's obligation.

Getting back to my calculation, I was using it as an example of people getting back their "own" money from the system. Most of us will get back much more than we paid into the system, even by counting the employer match. Yes, inflation has made a huge difference as well as the time value of money, but the fact remains that in pure dollars most of us will reap much more than we have sowed. Remember Ida Mae Fuller, the first person to ever collect a monthly social security check. She paid in $24.75 and collected almost $23,000 from the system. Most of us won't have that type of swing, but we will get more out than we put in.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:10 AM   #345
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Totally agree. Why should I have to pay a high tax rate some someone who CHOSE to buy a house gets a deduction. Why should I pay a higher rate so someone who CHOSE to have kids can have a deduction for having them and then educating them? Life is full of choices and they have consequences.
Tom, the mortgage interest deduction was meant to stimulate the housing industry and also to level out the playing field for variations in housing costs. For example, my house here in the Buffalo area would sell for probably somewhere around $400,000. Put that same house in DC and you would be looking at closer to $2,000,000. Even at that the mortgage interest deduction is still capped at a mortgage of $1 million. That may sound high to you, but in some parts of the country, that doesn't buy extreme estates, only relatively normal housing.

Earlier in the year the proposal was made to eliminate the deduction for second home mortgage interest. The cries and howls on the RV forums were all over the place. What would happen to the RV industry without the deduction for the interest on our toys?

To paraphrase what someone had said earlier, eliminate all the deductions you want to eliminate....as long as they aren't the ones I use!
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:16 AM   #346
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...To paraphrase what someone had said earlier, eliminate all the deductions you want to eliminate....as long as they aren't the ones I use!
Heck, I'm all for eliminating all deductions, exemptions, etc. period. I'm sick and tired of playing that game.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:32 AM   #347
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Heck, I'm all for eliminating all deductions, exemptions, etc. period. I'm sick and tired of playing that game.

What most folks don't seem to realize is that the deductions are the things that save those of us in the middle class from getting clobbered by taxes. For the upper end earners deductions start to be eliminated as you reach certain income brackets so that high earners don't have the same benefits as those in the middle. The lower end doesn't pay income taxes, so deductions don't matter at that end of the spectrum.

I would be willing to bet that the elimination of all deductions would have an effect on the economy that would be similar to the elimination of SS benefits.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:48 AM   #348
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Tom, the mortgage interest deduction was meant to stimulate the housing industry and also to level out the playing field for variations in housing costs. For example, my house here in the Buffalo area would sell for probably somewhere around $400,000. Put that same house in DC and you would be looking at closer to $2,000,000. Even at that the mortgage interest deduction is still capped at a mortgage of $1 million. That may sound high to you, but in some parts of the country, that doesn't buy extreme estates, only relatively normal housing.

Earlier in the year the proposal was made to eliminate the deduction for second home mortgage interest. The cries and howls on the RV forums were all over the place. What would happen to the RV industry without the deduction for the interest on our toys?

To paraphrase what someone had said earlier, eliminate all the deductions you want to eliminate....as long as they aren't the ones I use!
I get it that the mortgage deduction was a stimulus for the home builders, realtors, and to let people get a home. People who live in house buy a lot of stuff adding to the economy. Some of the drawbacks are that I pay a higher tax rate than I would otherwise, and housing prices were artificially inflated and people signed up for more house they could afford because of the deduction. I could support a deduction for someone's first ever house to get them started but not on their next home or even a second home. Even then it should sunset after a few years.

Regarding deductions for second homes such as RV's, yachts .. To borrow what said no deductions for toys. Vacation homes should also be on your own dime. Live on beach front property.. don't expect me to pay to rebuild it through the national flood insurance program or FEMA.

Tom
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Old 05-25-2012, 09:01 AM   #349
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I get it that the mortgage deduction was a stimulus for the home builders, realtors, and to let people get a home. People who live in house buy a lot of stuff adding to the economy. Some of the drawbacks are that I pay a higher tax rate than I would otherwise, and housing prices were artificially inflated and people signed up for more house they could afford because of the deduction. I could support a deduction for someone's first ever house to get them started but not on their next home or even a second home. Even then it should sunset after a few years.

Regarding deductions for second homes such as RV's, yachts .. To borrow what said no deductions for toys. Vacation homes should also be on your own dime. Live on beach front property.. don't expect me to pay to rebuild it through the national flood insurance program or FEMA.

Tom

Tom, good ideas, but like most things in government and taxes, it's easy to give the people something, but God help you when you go to take it away!
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Old 05-25-2012, 09:02 AM   #350
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[QUOTE=wnytaxman;1188382]What most folks don't seem to realize is that the deductions are the things that save those of us in the middle class from getting clobbered by taxes. For the upper end earners deductions start to be eliminated as you reach certain income brackets so that high earners don't have the same benefits as those in the middle. The lower end doesn't pay income taxes, so deductions don't matter at that end of the spectrum.
QUOTE]

True enough. It also leads to even more people not paying any taxes putting more burden on those of us that do. I am only talking of fed/state income taxes.

All things being equal (salary, place of residence), a family of four should payer high taxes than a single person as they will reap much more benefits from all levels of government than the single guy. (Keeping the Marines employed to protect you, your spouse,and your kids ought to cost you something).

Tom
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