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Old 05-25-2012, 04:11 PM   #365
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I guess it's good for TV sales that they run those ads.

The trial lawyers have the second largest lobby in the US. They have been very effective in getting what they want. Here in NY we even have a law that allows someone who gets hurt on a construction site to sue not only their employer but the owner of the building who had absolutely nothing to do with the injury. The reason for that loophole is that the workmen's comp insurance didn't pay enough to make it really lucrative for the lawyers so they added the property owner into the mix.
The law doesn't allow you to sue your employer unless there is gross negligence. The owners are some times sued because they have contribute to the negligence in some way. PS It's not the workers comp insurance carrier that pays it's the liability insurance.
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Old 05-25-2012, 04:18 PM   #366
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My references are to individuals, not corporations. GE gets their breaks by using off shore businesses and other tricks that are legal. When you get into corporate taxation there are all types of issues that arrise because of different laws in different countries and so on. Much of our client work on the corporate side is with cross border companies between the US and Canada and there is a great deal of difference in the tax laws between those two countries as they apply to corporations.

Every upper income person I deal with would love to see a flat tax. The top 5% of all taxpayers pay 75% of all the taxes so that group would love to get the huge tax cut a flat tax would generate. Those of us in the middle would not fare very well.
Those "tricks" are loopholes that need to be closed up.

I'm in the middle and would benefit from every flat tax proposal I've seen so far. AZ recently considered a flat tax that all the so called experts decried as being unfair to the poor and the middle class. When I crunched the numbers, I found that I would have paid a considerably lower tax and anyone making less than me would also pay less unless already getting unfair breaks.
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Old 05-25-2012, 04:20 PM   #367
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I admit that I haven't read the entire thread but it's time we stop blaming others (ie: our elected officials) and make the necessary changes to vote for those of us that are willing to abide by our forefathers guidance and respect the blood they shed for us. It means heavy sacrifices for us ALL.
Again, will you pay my bills?
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Old 05-25-2012, 04:22 PM   #368
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since it is "insured" by our government.
The guy that gets hit by a bus on the way to his retirement party gets nothing from SS. This is insured. keeping money in a 1% CD isn't the smartest thing out there to do. The stock markets have averaged around 9 to 10& since World War II. It is not guaranteed, but one must go on history. If the stock market fails, then so will the FDIC. Frankly, when we are borrowing 40 cents on every dollar we spend, a government guarantee is meaningless to me. About every 10 years, the market goes down and then goes back up. If you are looking for 100% guarantee, the mattress is better than the 1% CD. In any analysis, you have to look at who has the money at the end. One you get nothing, the other you get it all with interest and the employer portion. People complain about the risky stock market. What is more risky than getting nothing at the end?
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Old 05-25-2012, 04:22 PM   #369
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I guess it's good for TV sales that they run those ads.

The trial lawyers have the second largest lobby in the US. They have been very effective in getting what they want. Here in NY we even have a law that allows someone who gets hurt on a construction site to sue not only their employer but the owner of the building who had absolutely nothing to do with the injury. The reason for that loophole is that the workmen's comp insurance didn't pay enough to make it really lucrative for the lawyers so they added the property owner into the mix.
The SSDI lawyers are right down in the slime with the mass tort lawyers. I still like what ole Billy Wigglestick had to say about them.
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Old 05-25-2012, 04:35 PM   #370
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I have to take strong exception to such "studies" comparing SS return on investment. Talk about apples to oranges comparisons.

What insured investment returns 10%? SS should NEVER be compared to anything that isn't insured, since it is "insured" by our government.

The vast majority would certainly consider SS to be an investment they cannot "afford to lose". Investments that return anything like 10% are only for those with money they can afford to lose. Last I checked CD and savings accounts backed by FDIC are well less than 1%.
I have an insured annuity that is making 2.25% and I got it 2009 (I wanted something to protect what money I had, not to gamble with it since I'm too old to recover from a loss; otherwise, I could be making a lot more). Safe investments have averaged 5% over the past thirty some odd years. Almost as safe are mutual funds that spread money around in a variety of investments to avoid taking a hit when a few of the investments go sour. My retirement fund survived the recent recession without a hicough because it was "overfunded" due to their policy of having funds on hand to support all employees as potential retirees, no matter their age, instead of just the actual and eligible retirees. It has long since recovered all losses.
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Old 05-25-2012, 05:23 PM   #371
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Seems to me there's quite a bit of difference between 2.25% and 10% assumed in the "study".

And for about 65 of the 70 years of my like, most people would have called buying your own house to be a "safe" investment - today not so much!!!
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Old 05-25-2012, 05:41 PM   #372
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Seems to me there's quite a bit of difference between 2.25% and 10% assumed in the "study".
Yep, there is. We are in a recession. You can easily look up the exact figure yourself. I was at about 7% last year. In investing, you must take the long view.
That 2.25% is a lots better than getting 0 % and only half your money as it is now on Social Security.
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Old 05-25-2012, 05:48 PM   #373
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The link below gives the stock market returns by year from 1973 thru 2011. Check it out and compare to that 1%. The nice thing about America, is that normally, we can do what we want. SS isn't one of those things.


Historical Stock Market Returns – Stock Market Returns Since 1973

You also have to add in compounding here.
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Old 05-25-2012, 06:02 PM   #374
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We can talk about it on an individual basis till we're blue in the face, to little effect.

But the bottom line, as I see it, is this - before there was SS the 65+ age group was the most impoverished age group in America. After SS (and Medicare - health care costs are a critical piece of the puzzle) the 65+ age group is the wealthiest age group, as it should be when one has completed one's career.

If we had left it up to the private investment "solution" (which had 100+ years to solve the problem - and failed), how many more millions of Americans would have died in poverty?
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Old 05-25-2012, 06:10 PM   #375
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If we had left it up to the private investment "solution" (which had 100+ years to solve the problem - and failed), how many more millions of Americans would have died in poverty?
America has been the most successful nation in the history of the earth,. The free market and private investment has been hugely successful and is the main reason for this. Hard to knock success. Not one socialist government has ever had anywhere near our success as a country. People are living longer and back in the older times, our elderly were mainly taken care of by their children for the few years (on average) they were not productive. Back when SS started, people lived on average to 63. Now if you get on SS you stand a 50:50 chance of hitting 85. I don't see many American dying in poverty. The poor in America are better off that 90% of the world's population. They have cars, TV, AC, and ETC.
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Old 05-25-2012, 06:32 PM   #376
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But the bottom line, as I see it, is this - before there was SS the 65+ age group was the most impoverished age group in America. After SS (and Medicare - health care costs are a critical piece of the puzzle) the 65+ age group is the wealthiest age group, as it should be when one has completed one's career.

If we had left it up to the private investment "solution" (which had 100+ years to solve the problem - and failed), how many more millions of Americans would have died in poverty?
IMO this is one of the major dilemmas we face. Many of us don't want to think that the federal government is in the best position to "invest, hold, and then distribute" our own money to us in retirement but our population as a whole, has not shown the necessary life skills to do it on their own either!

If everyone were to have personal control over investing and then rationing their "SS funds", I have no doubt that we'd have MANY more poor elderly folks living in the streets. That would put us right back where we were before SS.

It's kind of like the old tale of the Three Little Pigs. What do the rest of us do about hose who insisted on building their homes out of straw?

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Old 05-25-2012, 06:58 PM   #377
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I don't see many American dying in poverty.
Check the life expectancy of those below the poverty line in America with the rest of us. It's significantly less. That means that not only are Americans dying in poverty - they're dying of poverty.
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Old 05-25-2012, 07:13 PM   #378
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IMO this is one of the major dilemmas we face. Many of us don't want to think that the federal government is in the best position to "invest, hold, and then distribute" our own money to us in retirement but our population as a whole, has not shown the necessary life skills to do it on their own either!

If everyone were to have personal control over investing and then rationing their "SS funds", I have no doubt that we'd have MANY more poor elderly folks living in the streets. That would put us right back where we were before SS.

It's kind of like the old tale of the Three Little Pigs. What do the rest of us do about hose who insisted on building their homes out of straw?

Rick

Bingo!!! Well said Rick, I totally agree.
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