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Old 05-25-2012, 07:24 PM   #379
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Ladyfitz, I currently pay others bills unwillingly, thanks to 80 years of progressive electable representatives. I pay for other countries bills unwillingly, too.
Why isn't it considered theft? Because some lifer senator says its not? If I had a real choice, yes I would help you out but pay 100% of your bills, probably not.
Will you help out on the bills for my diabetic daughter?
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Old 05-25-2012, 07:53 PM   #380
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Check the life expectancy of those below the poverty line in America with the rest of us. It's significantly less.
You stated it, please look it up. In America, poverty is a choice. There are millions of people who have been born into it and gotten to great heights. People move in and out of poverty all the time.

It has been proposed repeatedly for the government to manage the funds or give folks that option for an ownership account. The excuse has been made that it is too risky. Of course, getting nothing has no risk.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:00 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by LadyFitz... View Post
Those "tricks" are loopholes that need to be closed up.

I'm in the middle and would benefit from every flat tax proposal I've seen so far. AZ recently considered a flat tax that all the so called experts decried as being unfair to the poor and the middle class. When I crunched the numbers, I found that I would have paid a considerably lower tax and anyone making less than me would also pay less unless already getting unfair breaks.
Hmm, would you really benefit from a flat tax? Well, let's see, there would be even more foreclosures than we have today because a lot of people depend on that mortgage interest deduction to help pay for that mortgage. That means that the housing market would drop even more so your own home would now go down in value and there just might be a foreclosure or two in your neighborhood which would lower the value of your home even more. Oh, and your RV would suddenly not be worth as much as it had been because only those who have the cash or don't need the interest deduction can afford to buy your RV and now the value of it has dropped like a rock because of no market.

So now as we move down the schedule A we find that high tax states can no longer provide services that now must be picked up by the Feds, which means you will help to pay for them. We've also lost the contribution deduction which means that more folks who didn't go on welfare and depended on charity to some extent must now utilize government services to survive.

As we get down to end of the Schedule A we find that those who are employees but cover their own business expenses will no longer be allowed to deduct those expenses. So those folks would have to either change professions or get their companies to cover their expense. And the list goes on and on.

LadyFitz, the flat tax is like communism, in theory it's great and in practice it just doesn't work. You have an economy that, for better or worse, is ingrained with our tax code the way it has been structured for the last 100 years. So I think you will find that you really won't benefit from a flat tax.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:09 PM   #382
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Check the life expectancy of those below the poverty line in America with the rest of us. It's significantly less. That means that not only are Americans dying in poverty - they're dying of poverty.
Are those below the poverty line dying of poverty or are they dying due to their own choices? The poor are much more likely to smoke, drink, and abuse drugs which is a major cause of their lower life expectancy. The poor get free health care, free food, free housing, and even free cell phones. When they don't feel well they can go to the doctor or even call an ambulance because it doesn't cost them anything. The rest of us hesitate on using health services because the cost will come out of our own pockets.

Add to the life expectancy issues is the crime within the poorer communities. If I am remembering correctly, the odds are almost 50/50 that in some parts of the country you will not make it to age 21 without having been shot at least once.

I think your assumption of poverty causing a shorter life may not be a true cause and effect.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:37 PM   #383
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If you do not want your social security funds, give it back to the Treasury. If you do not believe in Medicare, pay the cost back to the Treasury. If you do accept them then you are a card carrying socialist and you need to get over it. If you do not think that these types of programs that have been paid for have not been part of your wage - don't take them. If you think that anyone lives in poverty by choice - there is no help for you. If you do not understand that business income, personal income, and "unearned" income (dividends , carried interest, etc) are taxed at different levels then you need to educate yourself. If you think that the vast majority of business's are taxed at 35% then you need to educate yourself (effective tax rate for most business's in the USA is about 12%). If you do not understand why a "flat tax" is unfair, then you need to study all aspects of that. If you do not understand why we have a progressive tax structure (including an estate tax) then you have never studied the history of why we had a revolution to found this great country.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:44 PM   #384
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Have you ever considered that your meds are under prescribed? No sense in bringing up a whole lot of non discussed things in a friendly rational discussion.

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If you do not want your social security funds, give it back to the Treasury. If you do not believe in Medicare, pay the cost back to the Treasury.
This money does not belong to the treasury. It is money that was made by hard work by the individual. The money was taken by the government and we never even saw any of it. It is not the government's money to be returned to the worker. It is the workers money held by the government. It is not a matter of a worker "not wanting" their own money, it is a of the worker not thinking that the government is handling it right. Look at the links I posted. Our money is being squandered compared to what we could have done. In America, we have the right to complain about this. Not thinking so is unamerican in my humble opinion.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:49 PM   #385
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Typical type of con******tive reply - if you cannot attack the issue then attack the individual. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion - no one is entitled to their own facts.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:50 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by Kunysz513 View Post
...Will you help out on the bills for my diabetic daughter?
I'm not the one advocating cuts.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:52 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by Dick Noble
Typical type of con******tive reply - if you cannot attack the issue then attack the individual. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion - no one is entitled to their own facts.
This is getting common place in this thread. Thanks for your input , Dick.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:56 PM   #388
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Hmm, would you really benefit from a flat tax? Well, let's see, there would be even more foreclosures than we have today because a lot of people depend on that mortgage interest deduction to help pay for that mortgage. That means that the housing market would drop even more so your own home would now go down in value and there just might be a foreclosure or two in your neighborhood which would lower the value of your home even more. Oh, and your RV would suddenly not be worth as much as it had been because only those who have the cash or don't need the interest deduction can afford to buy your RV and now the value of it has dropped like a rock because of no market.

So now as we move down the schedule A we find that high tax states can no longer provide services that now must be picked up by the Feds, which means you will help to pay for them. We've also lost the contribution deduction which means that more folks who didn't go on welfare and depended on charity to some extent must now utilize government services to survive.

As we get down to end of the Schedule A we find that those who are employees but cover their own business expenses will no longer be allowed to deduct those expenses. So those folks would have to either change professions or get their companies to cover their expense. And the list goes on and on.

LadyFitz, the flat tax is like communism, in theory it's great and in practice it just doesn't work. You have an economy that, for better or worse, is ingrained with our tax code the way it has been structured for the last 100 years. So I think you will find that you really won't benefit from a flat tax.
I don't own a house anymore. When I did, I wasn't dependent on the deduction to be able to meet my payments. Unlike many, if not most, people in this country, I have enough sense to live within my income.

There would be an economic shakeup because of the number of people and business that have been artificially kept afloat by government trying to control the economy (and failing minserably). That shake up could be made less traumatic by phasing out the deductions, etc. gradually.
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Old 05-25-2012, 09:42 PM   #389
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Let me try one more tact to see if I can get the flat tax put away. My business is a CPA firm. My major expense is the wages of the people who work for me. Under a flat tax there would be no deductions for anything. So I would make out pretty well when compared to a retailer who has to purchase product to sell. Part of the reason why flat taxes don't work is that we have a very diverse society in many ways including the many different types of businesses that are run under the coverage of a sole proprietorship. You can't put one flat tax on the various types of businesses without defining what can or can not be taken against their sales.

The common argument then becomes a national sales tax. As I have said before a national sales tax would be nothing but a blank check for the government. Also I can tell you that the complexities of sales tax makes income tax law look easy.

I would ask those that have come late to this discussion, what would you do to save Social Security and what sacrifices are you willing to make? Many on here have said they wouldn't do a thing to save the system. Most have said that sacrifices should be made by anyone but themselves. So, what's your cure?
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Old 05-25-2012, 09:56 PM   #390
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Taxman, I agree with your input. I'm a retired CPA and I've put in a lot of hours doing tax returns - including free returns through AARP.

Have you looked at VAT (value added tax)? I have wondered about that.

As to "fixing" social security - that is way to complex a subject for an RV forum. Simplistic solutions to complex problems lead to horrid outcomes.
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Old 05-25-2012, 09:58 PM   #391
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I would ask those that have come late to this discussion, what would you do to save Social Security and what sacrifices are you willing to make?
This is the same question that you opened the thread with.

I maintain, again, that you have your answer, 391 irrelevant-to-the-question posts later.

No one in this group of Americans will make the smallest personal sacrifice purely for the good of the Nation and Future Generations.
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Old 05-25-2012, 10:01 PM   #392
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I take umbrage with that. I'll give up all $150/mo of mine!
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