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PatStab · 05-22-2012, 03:32 PM

Oh and if Mitt only has investment income I don't think he pays in any SS. His is all capital gain income, wish we had that kind of earnings to do that. We pay income tax in the foreign countries hubby works in and at a way higher rate then here most times, his company does reimburse us. We pay taxes here and we turn in anyother income and pay taxes. Since I was an accountant I am very careful about that. I doubt the rich are so careful or they have ways to shelter it. We should all realize the tax laws are formulated for the rich, passed for the rich, and enforced for the rich, they are not up there working on laws for you and me. Used to be they were but no longer.

Last year I got a one time payment on a small piece of farmland I have. SS came back and made me return almost 2 months of benefits, then because my daughters is based on mine she also had to return the same. I went ahead and paid it back quickly out of pocket as she has medicaid and I was afraid with no income shown for her that she might lose it. She now has medicare and medicaid so she should be ok. But you have to really be careful with this stuff, doesn't take much to screw it up.

PatStab · 05-22-2012, 03:37 PM

Also there is no private insurance program that would insure her for any amount of money, so what happens to people like her? It wouldn't take but a few hospitalizations that are not covered to put us broke too.

It's easy to say we should not cover people like this, believe me I'm sorry people have to help with this cost. But there is nothing there so I take advantage of whatever is offered.

Texas did pass a law some years back that if hubby and I both end up in nursing homes the state won't take the house if she would be homeless. Not sure what that would do as she can't live here alone and if its sold the state will take the money. I don't think the trust will help in all honesty, we won't know till we are dead and gone, well we won't know then either.

steelheadbluesman · 05-22-2012, 03:39 PM

Taxman - Sure, I think we agree that SS should be a stand-alone proposition, meaning that it should be solvent and should no longer be commingled with other funds, agencies, budgets, etc. And given that scope, I would certainly favor any honest and fair efforts to right the sinking ship. You probably found in my posts that I am a believer in the 'greater good'. People come and go, but societies and nations lumber on....

As for Zigzag -- yes, it is a very small community in the foothills of Mt Hood in NW Oregon's Cascade range. It was named by early wagon train pioneers because the community was the first encampment reached after "zigging and zagging" their wagons down the treacherous western slope of Mt Hood. It's smack-dab on the Oregon Trail. Also, the Zigzag river runs down the same slope, and was probably named for the same reason, although there is some disagreement.

You can buy a t-shirt in a couple local joints (pardon the pun) that have a picture of the "zigzag man" from the French rolling papers, and the slogan "I just got rolled in Zigzag Oregon". They're pretty big sellers.

greystroke · 05-22-2012, 03:41 PM

One thing this thread has proven is people can't agree on what changes should be made........neither can congress.

If people are forced to pay into a system and they are selected not to receive the benefit, this is nothing more than re-distribution of income which won't work. Sorry.

steelheadbluesman · 05-22-2012, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickO

I've struggled with the premise of this thread. The basic question is "how many of us would be willing to take some form of cut in benefits in order to fix SS".

Although it would really tick me off, I could see myself (under certain circumstances) supporting a plan that would do this. However, those in charge of such things have lied to me before and stolen the money I "contributed" to the system. If I were to agree to reduced benefits to fix the system, I'd feel pretty foolish unless there were other sweeping changes to ensure that this behavior wasn't repeated. Fool me once, shame on me.....

I do like the discussion on clearly setting national priorities but I'm bothered by how we (USA, not necessarily just this thread) have seemed to accept the premise of wealth redistribution based on "needs". It's happening a little at a time and each tiny bit seems harmless enough after much debate and we convince ourselves we're doing the right thing for those in need and that it's not socialism... but I fear one day (soon) we'll look around and find, wait.... if it walks like a duck.... and quacks like a duck.

Rick

I agree with you Rick, but I want to say that a certain amount (and I don't know what that amount is) of caring for others who are less capable or less fortunate is simply part of becoming a civilized society. It is often difficult for those who 'have' to share with those with 'less', and the equations get very confusing; and yet I know that most of us do this in a variety of ways. Just a thought.

Dav5942 · 05-22-2012, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildtoad

Just a note SC caps sales tax on vehicles at $300. you buy a $5,000 clunker--$300. Buy a $300,000 mh--$300. (Watch out for property tax though)

Montana-$0

steelheadbluesman · 05-22-2012, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wnytaxman

Steel, I don't take anything personally on any forum. On another RV forum the discussion was about the use of a Montana LLC to avoid sales tax. I made the comment that in tax law the burden of proof is always on the taxpayer. Oh my gosh, you would have thought that I had just insulted motherhood, apple pie and the flag.

I look at these forums as a chance to learn and share ideas and even opinions. I subscribe to the adage that stupid is a condition, but ignorance is a choice. I choose to learn as much as I can from whomever I can to not make ignorance my choice.

Yeah, I can really appreciate that attitude! This thread is one of those 'testy' discussions, and why wouldn't it be. Like you, I think I'm getting a broader education on these issues. Great thread, glad you did it!

Dav5942 · 05-22-2012, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LSC9901

Overspending (Nationally) and there are to many loop holes for not just the rich, but for everyone to utilize. I have no idea how many millions woul dbe added to our economy by sealing up the loop holes but it sure wouldn't do any harm. Between the shutting off of loop holes and spending $$ in places where it is a total waste I have to believe that a lot of people programs could be sufficiently funded when and where needed.

Overspended YES. Taxing NO-not enough there to make a small dent in our problems.

As I said earlier you can take the TOTAL NET WORTH($11.5 Trillion) of all the Millionaires and Billionaires in the US and spread it eavenly among the total US population and you only have $48,000 EACH! May be enough to get some thru one year but many will spend it before the year is up.

I don't know what their earnings per year are but it is 10% of their net worth we each get $4,800 per year-a drop in the bucket that would not even pay for social security much less Obamacare, food, gas, etc. etc.

Or increase their("the rich M*Bs") tax by 10% and we each get $40 per month.

The problem is a lot more serious than anyone on this thread seems to understand. Yes, we can put off the problem for a small amount of time, but by not making MAJOR changes to EVERYONES standard of living, we are headed over a big cliff!

Although its a little late, some are finally started to at least discuss the issues without throwing the ones with ideas "over the cliff".

steelheadbluesman · 05-22-2012, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greystroke

One thing this thread has proven is people can't agree on what changes should be made........neither can congress.

It is for that reason - because millions of people cannot agree on policy - that we send our "representatives" to Congress to work it out for us, yes? They should represent their constituents as best they can and do what's right for the country and for us, which are usually the same thing.

RickO · 05-22-2012, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelheadbluesman

I agree with you Rick, but I want to say that a certain amount (and I don't know what that amount is) of caring for others who are less capable or less fortunate is simply part of becoming a civilized society. It is often difficult for those who 'have' to share with those with 'less', and the equations get very confusing; and yet I know that most of us do this in a variety of ways. Just a thought.

ABSOLUTELY! I could not agree more. Patstab's heart wrenching posts are perfect examples. Any civilized society should take responsibility for its least fortunate and serious medical conditions certainly qualify as that.

I guess my comments about wealth redistribution were driven by the suggestion that one way to fix SS would be to remove the cap for contributions but leave the benefits for those folks capped. My dark little brain processes that along with all of the "tax the rich" parades... not to mention having half of our nation not paying any federal income tax... and it's starting to make me think.... hey, wait just a second.

Rick

steelheadbluesman · 05-22-2012, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickO

ABSOLUTELY! I could not agree more. Patstab's heart wrenching posts are perfect examples. Any civilized society should take responsibility for its least fortunate and serious medical conditions certainly qualify as that.

I guess my comments about wealth redistribution were driven by the suggestion that one way to fix SS would be to remove the cap for contributions but leave the benefits for those folks capped. My dark little brain processes that along with all of the "tax the rich" parades... not to mention having half of our nation not paying any federal income tax... and it's starting to make me think.... hey, wait just a second.

Rick

Sure, I get that!

greystroke · 05-22-2012, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelheadbluesman

It is for that reason - because millions of people cannot agree on policy - that we send our "representatives" to Congress to work it out for us, yes? They should represent their constituents as best they can and do what's right for the country and for us, which are usually the same thing.

Both parties have different beliefs. Neither will bend. The only way you will get agreement in congress is to elect one party to have complete control. But that is also terrible and leads to anarchy. Maybe a third party.

I think one of things that is wrong is that elected officials follow party lines rather than representing the people that elected him. But go against your party and they will see to it that your not elected. There are exceptions such as Lieberman who was willing to bend his party line got ousted by his party and then elected as an independent. The voters can show this power and let everyone know they are tired of party lines. Invisible people that make the rules.

Solution....I wish I had one.

wildtoad · 05-22-2012, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelheadbluesman

I agree with you Rick, but I want to say that a certain amount (and I don't know what that amount is) of caring for others who are less capable or less fortunate is simply part of becoming a civilized society. It is often difficult for those who 'have' to share with those with 'less', and the equations get very confusing; and yet I know that most of us do this in a variety of ways. Just a thought.

So you're OK with everyone paying something to care for the less fortunate, elderly who can't but try to take care of themselves just don't collect it as part of the social security tax?

PatStab · 05-22-2012, 05:37 PM

I wish it were not so, but there a millions like my daughter. Yet she is better off as she is considered mildly mentally challenged but still could not take care of herself. I have no answers but what do you do with this population? Believe me they are very very poorly cared for now, that's why she is still home with us.

I won't bend your ears anymore after this post but perhaps it will throw another perspective on some of those just taking from the system.

Do you know something like 80% of the young adults like her still live with a parent many of whom now are in their 80's? So this popuplation hasn't even really started needing custodial care yet. And, for example, in Texas homes have been closed and nursing homes shut down, so where will they go? We are talking even more money and istead they keep cutting. Also medicaid provides no or tiny bits of dental care so those without a parent or money have a crying need for dental care. They try charities, sympathetic dentists, anything to get care. You cannot believe the suffering going on in this country for this underserved population. It's a crime actually, but its a hidden one with people that cannot advocate for themselves. So its our dirty big secret in this country.

If you want to make it worse look at the new laws against abortion or in some states its illegal to even tell the parent if they have a fetus with severe disabilites but yet cut anything for them. No parent but a millionairs can do this on their own. I will get off that one as I know its an ethical issue with some. So that is my soapbox one. That is beyond a crime in my book.

I could have put her in a group home and did a private one for 9 months, she was miserable. I felt so sorry for her I brought her home. I know that's where she will end up one day and we decided to give her a good as life as possible. We were trying to save enough to combine SS and savings to get her in a private home then interest went to hell. I did not want her in a state run one as they can be a living hell for clients. We have the money saved to take care of her if the state doesn't get it later but since its earning nothing it will run out in probably 10 years instead of the 20 to 30 years with her SS. but with nowhere to invest it its earning zero and I'm not putting it in stocks. Oh here is another goodie. If we put the money in her trust, its established but not funded, any earnings on it in the trust is taxed 50% until she starts drawing from it so you can't save up. Also she cannot have more then $2000 in her name or she loses her medicaid. I have not told them but mom bought and paid for a burial plot and we put a headstone on it so that is taken care of, its in our will. It's back home where we are from and I bought it some time ago so it falls under the $2000 amount, but it could be that much easily.

And here is another if a well meaning parent or grandparent leaves an inheritance to these kids, they will lose their benefits, including medicaid which would also include their place on the waiting list for a group home until the money is gone. And its gone quick. We were on a group home waiting list for 11 years before her name came up. Now we are stuck in Texas because we are afraid to leave and have to start all over elsewhere. Also I cannot have her out of the state more then 30 days. I understand there has to be rules but some are plain silly.

Anyway I had to quit work and take care of her and mom about 15 years ago, thankfully my husband has a good job so it worked out for us. Also the last 3 years we feel we are in better financial shape. She loves to go places and we like to see her happy, we feel this will give her memories for when times are not so good for her. Hubby is never here and likes to be home when he is. He is home about 8 to 12 weeks a year, been that way for 10 years.

So we went ahead and hubby built on her own bathroom to her bedroom, we built in cabinets and made her a tidy little bedroom/bath suite I guess. Not big enough for a kitchen and stuff but handicapped ready and nice for her.

I mean the ways they fix it so you can trip up is pathetic, they come after the least for things to cut or to tax. So even with what we can provide we still can't do it alone, access to any kind of healthcare keeps us tied to the system. I have no answers but just wanted to give you a bit of a view from some of the ones that have to use the system or a few health issues could make us broke too and she had had some and will likely have many more.

There are so many issues but I understand the burden totally that society should not have to shoulder, but have no answers to any of it. Wish there were alternatives and we would be doing it.

Anyway enough said, nothing I can fix.