Go Back   iRV2 Forums > iRV2.com COMMUNITY FORUMS > Just Conversation
Click Here to Login
Join iRV2 Today

Mission Statement: Supporting thoughtful exchange of knowledge, values and experience among RV enthusiasts.
Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on iRV2
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 02-25-2012, 10:33 AM   #43
Senior Member
 
Thor Owners Club
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,892
I read all the threads about the price of crude, oil coming to the US from the middle east, blah blah blah. With all this instability in the world why didnt the US embrace the keystone pipeline? Secure oil from a strategic partner in North America. Now Canada is looking at selling oil to China instead. Boy thats smart! Whose playing politics now.
__________________

__________________
Fred1609 is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 RV Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

iRV2.com RV Community - Are you about to start a new improvement on your RV or need some help with some maintenance? Do you need advice on what products to buy? Or maybe you can give others some advice? No matter where you fit in you'll find that iRV2 is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with other RV owners, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create an RV blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 02-25-2012, 12:05 PM   #44
Senior Member
 
iRV2 No Limits Club
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Tempe, AZ
Posts: 1,833
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzick View Post
I am sometimes a commodity trader, and, other than personal use, I do not use commodities. Orange juice, sugar, various metals, hog futures, bananas, wheat, corn, and, my favorite, oil, are some of the commodities I have traded. Sometimes I have made money, a few times lost. This is wrong because?
It's wrong because the money you make comes from the pockets of the end users without having added to the value of the commodity itself. Commodity speculation does nothing to increase the value of the commodity itself and, as far as I'm concerned, is nothing but legalized theft.
__________________

__________________
LadyFitz... is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2012, 12:06 PM   #45
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler6357 View Post
I respectfully disagree. This assumes that an increase in domestic oil production doesn't affect world prices which is totally unrealistic. If America were pumping more oil then America would be increasing the world supply of oil thus putting downward pressure on the price of oil on world markets. If America was flooding the market with oil then those speculators would be speculating that the price is going to drop instead of rise and prices would come down quickly. The Saudis cut and increase supply to affect the price of oil all the time. Why do you think OPEC was formed? The answer is to control the price of oil by limiting production. The truth is, speculation is based on supply and demand. When supply increases at a quicker rate than the demand increases prices go down, when it doesn't they go up, plain and simple.
If we or any non OPEC country were to start putting massive amounts of oil on the market OPEC would cut production to maintain prices. There is a finite amount of oil controlled by OPEC, they would rather sell 50 barrels at $100 than 100 barrels at $50, same income but they keep more of their oil in the ground.
__________________
henderson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2012, 12:09 PM   #46
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred1609 View Post
I read all the threads about the price of crude, oil coming to the US from the middle east, blah blah blah. With all this instability in the world why didnt the US embrace the keystone pipeline? Secure oil from a strategic partner in North America. Now Canada is looking at selling oil to China instead. Boy thats smart! Whose playing politics now.
I've read that much of the oil from the Keystone pipeline was for export as refined product, not domestic use.
__________________
henderson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2012, 12:17 PM   #47
laj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,241
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyFitz...

It's wrong because the money you make comes from the pockets of the end users without having added to the value of the commodity itself. Commodity speculation does nothing to increase the value of the commodity itself and, as far as I'm concerned, is nothing but legalized theft.
Sounds like what retailers do
So is that theft too?
Perfectly legal and anyone willing to take
The risk can play, so don't whine about those willing to put their money on the line when they make a profit
__________________
laj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2012, 12:21 PM   #48
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyFitz... View Post
It's wrong because the money you make comes from the pockets of the end users without having added to the value of the commodity itself. Commodity speculation does nothing to increase the value of the commodity itself and, as far as I'm concerned, is nothing but legalized theft.
Quote:
Originally Posted by laj View Post
Sounds like what retailers do
So is that theft too?
Perfectly legal and anyone willing to take
The risk can play, so don't whine about those willing to put their money on the line when they make a profit
The retailers do add value by storing and dispensing product
__________________
henderson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2012, 12:41 PM   #49
Senior Member
 
Tyler6357's Avatar
 
Vintage RV Owners Club
Fleetwood Owners Club
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by henderson View Post
If we or any non OPEC country were to start putting massive amounts of oil on the market OPEC would cut production to maintain prices. There is a finite amount of oil controlled by OPEC, they would rather sell 50 barrels at $100 than 100 barrels at $50, same income but they keep more of their oil in the ground.
Don't be too sure about that. Often times the OPEC nations can't agree among themselves and sometimes will stab each other in the backs to sell oil at market prices. If America or any other non-OPEC nation starts to flood the market with oil, OPEC might try to cut production to keep prices up but you are correct that they only control a finite amount of oil and their production isn't a high enough percentage of overall world production to totally control the price of oil. Sure, if they all stick together they are able to influence the price but they wouldn't be able to stop the decline in prices. As prices fall their strategy of cutting production to keep prices high starts to cost them big bucks. For example, let's assume that the world price of oil is $100/brl and America start flooding the market with oil to drive the price down to $90/brl. If OPEC cuts production to even out supplies, America will start selling the oil that they used to sell costing them more money. As the price continues to fall they will start losing more money by not selling what they have before the price drops to 80. As this happens one or more of the OPEC nations will break away and start pumping, it's happened before.
__________________
Tyler6357 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2012, 01:35 PM   #50
Senior Member
 
iRV2 No Limits Club
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Tempe, AZ
Posts: 1,833
Quote:
Originally Posted by henderson View Post
The retailers do add value by storing and dispensing product
You beat me to it.
__________________
LadyFitz... is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2012, 01:44 PM   #51
Community Administrator
 
Clifftall's Avatar


 
Fleetwood Owners Club
Ford Super Duty Owner
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 29,135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler6357

Don't be too sure about that. Often times the OPEC nations can't agree among themselves and sometimes will stab each other in the backs to sell oil at market prices. If America or any other non-OPEC nation starts to flood the market with oil, OPEC might try to cut production to keep prices up but you are correct that they only control a finite amount of oil and their production isn't a high enough percentage of overall world production to totally control the price of oil. Sure, if they all stick together they are able to influence the price but they wouldn't be able to stop the decline in prices. As prices fall their strategy of cutting production to keep prices high starts to cost them big bucks. For example, let's assume that the world price of oil is $100/brl and America start flooding the market with oil to drive the price down to $90/brl. If OPEC cuts production to even out supplies, America will start selling the oil that they used to sell costing them more money. As the price continues to fall they will start losing more money by not selling what they have before the price drops to 80. As this happens one or more of the OPEC nations will break away and start pumping, it's happened before.
Why would America flood the market with oil? Any oil co that's producing the product will want the most profit for all those stock holders. They also , as mentioned above would only produce at the most profitable level. 50 barrels at $100 is more profitable than 100 at $50.
__________________


Cliff,Tallulah and Buddy ( 1999-2012 )
Clifftall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2012, 02:58 PM   #52
Senior Member
 
Tyler6357's Avatar
 
Vintage RV Owners Club
Fleetwood Owners Club
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clifftall View Post
Why would America flood the market with oil? Any oil co that's producing the product will want the most profit for all those stock holders. They also , as mentioned above would only produce at the most profitable level. 50 barrels at $100 is more profitable than 100 at $50.
America should flood the market with oil to increase supply, lower prices and reduce the power of OPEC to control those prices in the future. Once the supply of oil starts to out pace the increase in demand, OPEC's power and arbitrary supply limits will have less and less influence over the price of oil giving them even less control. They will also lose customers to those pumping oil costing them more money. Also, consider that as prices drop demand will increase as more people can afford to travel. It might be more profitable to sell 50 barrels at $100/barrel than to sell 100 barrels for $50/barrel, but it is also more profitable to sell 1000 barrels at $50/barrel ($50,000) than it is to sell 100 barrels at $100/barrel ($10,000). It's much like Henry Ford who was able to make much higher profits than other car companies even though Ford charged less per car because they made up for it in volume. It's much like when the government increases tax rates, taxpayers flee the country, hide their money, engage in less business creation and commerce causing tax revenue to go down. Would you rather have 50% of $10 or 10% of $100? This is simple supply side economics.
Any oil company that is pumping oil will want to pump as much as possible and sell it at market prices to maximize profits. The more they sell the more profits they make. They don't have the luxury of setting prices. Prices are set by speculating what the supply and demand will be in the future.
__________________
Tyler6357 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2012, 03:09 PM   #53
Community Administrator
 
Clifftall's Avatar


 
Fleetwood Owners Club
Ford Super Duty Owner
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 29,135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler6357

America should flood the market with oil to increase supply, lower prices and reduce the power of OPEC to control those prices in the future. Once the supply of oil starts to out pace the increase in demand, OPEC's power and arbitrary supply limits will have less and less influence over the price of oil giving them even less control. They will also lose customers to those pumping oil costing them more money. Also, consider that as prices drop demand will increase as more people can afford to travel. It might be more profitable to sell 50 barrels at $100/barrel than to sell 100 barrels for $50/barrel, but it is also more profitable to sell 1000 barrels at $50/barrel ($50,000) than it is to sell 100 barrels at $100/barrel ($10,000). It's much like Henry Ford who was able to make much higher profits than other car companies even though Ford charged less per car because they made up for it in volume. It's much like when the government increases tax rates, taxpayers flee the country, hide their money, engage in less business creation and commerce causing tax revenue to go down. Would you rather have 50% of $10 or 10% of $100? This is simple supply side economics.
Any oil company that is pumping oil will want to pump as much as possible and sell it at market prices to maximize profits. The more they sell the more profits they make. They don't have the luxury of setting prices. Prices are set by speculating what the supply and demand will be in the future.
I'm afraid this is a pipe-dream ( couldn't help it , sorry ). America is a great Country and a lot of good things , however we are not an oil co. Furthermore I would venture to say that most co's drilling here are not American co's.
__________________


Cliff,Tallulah and Buddy ( 1999-2012 )
Clifftall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2012, 03:32 PM   #54
Senior Member
 
Tyler6357's Avatar
 
Vintage RV Owners Club
Fleetwood Owners Club
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clifftall View Post
I'm afraid this is a pipe-dream ( couldn't help it , sorry ). America is a great Country and a lot of good things , however we are not an oil co. Furthermore I would venture to say that most co's drilling here are not American co's.
No, it's not a "pipe dream", it's actually called economics (haha, sorry, I couldn't help it). Of course the country is not an oil company. The truth is that it doesn't really matter if most oil co's drilling in America are actually American companies or not because drilling oil will increase world oil supplies and when they are increased faster than increases in demand for oil lower prices will result no matter if the company is an American one, British one, or anything else, that is the point. It doesn't even matter if they are drilling in America or not just so long as they drill.
__________________
Tyler6357 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2012, 04:39 PM   #55
Senior Member
 
iRV2 No Limits Club
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Tempe, AZ
Posts: 1,833
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler6357 View Post
No, it's not a "pipe dream", it's actually called economics (haha, sorry, I couldn't help it). Of course the country is not an oil company. The truth is that it doesn't really matter if most oil co's drilling in America are actually American companies or not because drilling oil will increase world oil supplies and when they are increased faster than increases in demand for oil lower prices will result no matter if the company is an American one, British one, or anything else, that is the point. It doesn't even matter if they are drilling in America or not just so long as they drill.
The reason you will never see that happen is there is a finite supply of oil in the ground. The oil companies want that supply to last as long as possible. As I already said, the oil companies are in the oil shortage business. Besides, most of the prices increases we are seeing right now are from speculators, not the oil companies.
__________________
LadyFitz... is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2012, 05:13 PM   #56
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 71
no one has mentioned this so i will throw it in.

according to "CNBC" the world supply of oil is 137 million bb/day.
the world demand is 135 million bb/day.
American demand is going down.
China and Indian demand goes up every day.
Aren't those supply/demand numbers a big part of what's going on with the fuel price ??
therefore, if we drill more wont the balance shift? JMO
__________________

__________________
RayN
2000 Safari Trek 7.4L
raycon9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Gas prices to much Tyler6357 Just Conversation 137 03-03-2012 04:13 PM
New to us... WERV23 New Rig Show-Off! 15 02-25-2012 09:38 PM
New to iRV2 & New to us 35J Iangolf New Member Check-In 12 02-24-2012 10:04 AM
Looking forward to when... Dipper New Member Check-In 12 02-23-2012 10:40 PM
New to me RV htwjr New Member Check-In 10 02-23-2012 08:31 PM

» Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.