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Old 02-17-2011, 04:03 PM   #43
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As a Licenced Security Officer in Florida, with a class "D" & "G" licence I am appauled at the stance taken by Wal-Mart !!! Like they said above "Damned if you do your JOB & Damned if you don't."
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Old 02-17-2011, 04:10 PM   #44
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Aman Brother !!!
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Old 02-17-2011, 05:27 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by hondo122 View Post
I think Joe has it exactly right, even a police officer has to take civilian casualties into the equation. The value one places on a life must certainly be more than a DVD player.
In theory nothing dug out of the ground or created by man is worth a life. At what point do you draw the line? Make all theft legal, or make it illegal to stop, prevent, discourage or otherwise inconvenience the poor criminals? Make it only legal to defend harm against another person, so long as that defense doesn't come with the possibility of harming another person?

Honestly, where is the line? At what point do we say enough? I really hate to say this boys and girls but the old world is a rough, unsafe, unfriendly place where bad things happen to good people. People get hurt, people get killed for nothing. A schoolmate of mine was killed because he didn't have enough to give the robber. Just cleaned out the register for him and got shot for his trouble.

But just give it to him and let him go, it's not worth it. Bull. They need to be stopped.

My son broke up a fight at school where two boys were on one. He didn't run, he didn't scream for help, he jumped in and stopped it then stood there willing to defend the loner. But what if they had a knife, what if they jumped him. Then it would have been a bad day, but he still made the correct choice vs. letting that kid lay there getting beaten. I got him ice cream on the way home. He was brave, he stood his ground for someone. I'm so proud I could bust and fully believe that he'll end up a great man.

Unfortunately many Americans have left that trait behind. Bravery. Such a simple word with so much weight to it.

Those men in Walmart were brave too. But, someone could have gotten hurt.

But, no one did. Plus that guy is going to jail at least for a little while.

Two wrongs don't make a right and letting that guy go would have been wrong. Criminals have got to learn that theft is theft and we as Americans will not tolerate it!!!!! Period, end of story.

But so long as we have enough people that are on the side of the crook so long as nobody gets a scratch, we will continue to slide. Criminals view us as weak. The world views us as weak. It used to be that if you screwed with an American we would stomp your ass!!! Now we wonder what we did to offend them and how we can bow and scrape to make them like us. No no, here, just take it.

And since "What if the gun went off, through the wall and hit someone." is a theme what if he ran out the door and shot someone that got in his way? Or tripped running and the gun went off? Now, weren't they better off stopping him?

I'm sorry, a candy bar or the Hope diamond he needs to be stopped. Once he presented the firearm he deserved a deep and thorough mud hole stomped in his tail.
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Old 02-17-2011, 05:59 PM   #46
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Dead crooks don't sue anyone.
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Old 02-17-2011, 06:02 PM   #47
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Dead customers don't sue anyone either - their families do.
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Old 02-17-2011, 06:54 PM   #48
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sKnight, your son did the right thing, he came to the aid of someone in trouble. That still doesn't mean that placing bystanders in jeopardy over an object, is the right thing to do. If you wish to place yourself in danger that's your call. I was brought up in Philadelphia in an area now called the badlands, I would never let someone take anything from me, but I would not put an innocent in harms way, "things" are just not worth it. JMHO
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Old 02-17-2011, 08:27 PM   #49
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Aren't morals, values and justice things? And what innocent did they put in harms way? The ten near the office or the 100 he would run past in a rising panic? Hard choice isn't it?

I want to know, where do you draw the line? Where do you say it's enough? Did you know that in Georgia until a few years ago it was illegal to stop someone that broke into your home stealing your things until you could prove that he meant harm to you and yours? That's right, if he didn't interact with you they could kick in the door, pick up your TV and so long as he didn't look at you legally you couldn't get up off the couch and stop him. Calling 911 was the limit of your interference.

Would you stand for something like that? The very intention of that law is to keep you safe from the reaction of that mean criminal.

So I keep hearing "things" or "DVD player" or the actual thing, a laptop. What is the line? At what point of criminal activity do we rise up and say enough? I want to know where your line in the sand is. I won't rebutt it or even respond. However I would like to know. This is everyone reading these words. If a guy points a gun at me he'll get my watch while he has me at a disadvantage but the second he turns his back I'm cleaning his clock. That's my line. I grew up on the south side of Atlanta. A white kid just a few blocks away from genuine ghetto? Maybe that skewed my opinion some.

And since this revolves around they should be fired because this was over "things" check out this I copied from the link.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The original article
There, he took the laptop out from under his clothing as Richins, Ray and Stewart arrived. Longton wanted to leave immediately; however, Richins, Ray and Stewart were between him and the door.


That was when Longton pulled out a gun and threatened those in the room.


"It was 20 seconds from closing the door and him coming at us," Ray said.


Ray said that Longton could have left, but he decided on another action.


"He instead grabbed Gabe by the shoulder and had the gun at his back and kept making threats," Ray said. "He had the opportunity, the door was to his back, and he wouldn't leave."
So is protecting one life enough?
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Old 02-17-2011, 09:01 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Chuck 1935
Heros act, Others rationalize.
Hooah!
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Old 02-17-2011, 09:29 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by sknight View Post
Aren't morals, values and justice things? And what innocent did they put in harms way? The ten near the office or the 100 he would run past in a rising panic? Hard choice isn't it?

I want to know, where do you draw the line? Where do you say it's enough? Did you know that in Georgia until a few years ago it was illegal to stop someone that broke into your home stealing your things until you could prove that he meant harm to you and yours? That's right, if he didn't interact with you they could kick in the door, pick up your TV and so long as he didn't look at you legally you couldn't get up off the couch and stop him. Calling 911 was the limit of your interference.

Would you stand for something like that? The very intention of that law is to keep you safe from the reaction of that mean criminal.

So I keep hearing "things" or "DVD player" or the actual thing, a laptop. What is the line? At what point of criminal activity do we rise up and say enough? I want to know where your line in the sand is. I won't rebutt it or even respond. However I would like to know. This is everyone reading these words. If a guy points a gun at me he'll get my watch while he has me at a disadvantage but the second he turns his back I'm cleaning his clock. That's my line. I grew up on the south side of Atlanta. A white kid just a few blocks away from genuine ghetto? Maybe that skewed my opinion some.

And since this revolves around they should be fired because this was over "things" check out this I copied from the link.

So is protecting one life enough?
Yes, one life is enough. I'm sorry that I came in late to this thread and missed the point about the gun in the back. That is defending someo ne as your son did not defending an object
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Old 02-17-2011, 09:52 PM   #52
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So I can just go into Wallyworld and walk out without paying. If they stop me I just hand them the stuff and leave.Next time I do the same thing and if I don't get caught good.If they use force they get fired.Sounds like a plan.Do you think it will work at the RV dealer?
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Old 02-17-2011, 09:59 PM   #53
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I think that until he was stealing something that was yours he was OK. The things my wife and I own I worked damn hard for all my life and there is no way I will let a low life steal from me if I can prevent it.

When it comes to them taking from me; they've drawn the line.
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Old 02-17-2011, 10:56 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sknight View Post
Aren't morals, values and justice things? And what innocent did they put in harms way? The ten near the office or the 100 he would run past in a rising panic? Hard choice isn't it?

I want to know, where do you draw the line? Where do you say it's enough? Did you know that in Georgia until a few years ago it was illegal to stop someone that broke into your home stealing your things until you could prove that he meant harm to you and yours? That's right, if he didn't interact with you they could kick in the door, pick up your TV and so long as he didn't look at you legally you couldn't get up off the couch and stop him. Calling 911 was the limit of your interference.

Would you stand for something like that? The very intention of that law is to keep you safe from the reaction of that mean criminal.

So I keep hearing "things" or "DVD player" or the actual thing, a laptop. What is the line? At what point of criminal activity do we rise up and say enough? I want to know where your line in the sand is. I won't rebutt it or even respond. However I would like to know. This is everyone reading these words. If a guy points a gun at me he'll get my watch while he has me at a disadvantage but the second he turns his back I'm cleaning his clock. That's my line. I grew up on the south side of Atlanta. A white kid just a few blocks away from genuine ghetto? Maybe that skewed my opinion some.

And since this revolves around they should be fired because this was over "things" check out this I copied from the link.

So is protecting one life enough?
It are common misconception about the laws and the police. First, the police are not there to protect you. That has been upheld by the Supreme Court.

Simply put, laws have two purposes:
1. To provide guidelines for behavior of law abiding people
2. To proscribe penalties and punishments for people who don't abide by the laws.
Nowhere does it say that laws are going to keep anybody safe from anything. Recidivist criminals show their respect for the the law. Most are only prosecuted for a fraction of the crimes that they commit and often punished for even less than that.

The OP dealt with a situation that could have gone sour because the thief had a gun and the 4 guys who elected to deal with him were not officially trained and licensed to do so. It is one thing to deal with a thief. It is another to jeopardize themselves and the others because of your action. Make no mistake - most larger caliber handguns are capable of shooting through standard walls like they aren't there so a separate room provides little protection for those outside of it.

So where do I draw the line? I have no intention of letting someone steal stuff from me. I will use every legal means of trying to stop them. An unarmed thief is someone that law enforcement needs to deal with. While it is true in Texas that certain situations, especially after dark, can be dealt with by deadly force, that is not my choice. Now a thief with a weapon (gun, knife, etc.) is a different matter. If I see or have reason to believe that someone engaged in theft poses a threat to me, I will act to stop the threat with all means available. One of the main problems is that the time from recognition of a threat to the time that it is actually carried out against you can be in fractions of a second. Any defender is always at a disadvantage in terms of response time.

Personally, I would have made the same decision that the 4 guys did in the original post. As good as any job is, it needs to be sacrificed when the other option is staying alive. There is no way that the four guys, Wal-Mart or any of us reading about it will know what might have happened if they had not acted. Like those who have tackled terrorists on planes, some times (like the Christmas day bomber) they are successful and others (like Flight 93), many innocent lives are lost as a result of the action. It is also clear that many more innocent lives would have been lost if the Flight 93 passengers had not acted.

A story that tempers my actions is about an off duty police officer who had his family at a fast food restaurant. He sensed something was wrong and sent his wife and kids outside - they weren't able to get out of the building before things went south. A masked robber came out of the backroom and the officer confronted and then shot the thief. Unfortunately, the thief fired wildly in return and killed a 9 year old girl. The officer is haunted by doubt about whether his being there at that moment and confronting the thief contributed to the little girls death. The officer realized afterward that his own family could have been wounded or killed in the situation.

I will confront evil but I am not batman. There is sometimes a very delicate balance between the two.
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