What Hard Times?

[quickiwe]

Orchardhill are you racist

[hondo122]

Here's what 200 millionaires are doing with their tax cuts
'Patriotic Millionaires' Describe What They've Done With Their Bush Tax Cuts: 'I Built A Dance Floor In My House'

[vegascouple]

I don't know about you, but when someone talks about how many people pay no taxes that they are talking about the poor. That is far from true.

The non-profit Citizens For Tax Justice (CTJ) has put out their findings revealing that twelve of the nations largest Fortune 500 companies, while making $170 billion in profits during the period of The Great Recession, paid an effective tax rate of negative 1.5%.


Yes, you read that correctly.


Not only have these twelve companies paid zero in taxes for the years 2008-2010, they actually received tax subsidies that added $62.4 billion to their bottom lines.


Do you really think large corporation and the wealthiest 1% can't pay anymore?

[Wanabee FTer]

I think the strategy is to overtax the middle class. They won't complain about carrying the lions share of the Federal tax burden.

[hondo122]

Originally Posted by Wanabee FTer

I think the strategy is to overtax the middle class. They won't complain about carrying the lions share of the Federal tax burden.

Look I'm willing to pay more to help the future generations, but the
uber rich have to stand up and be counted. My whole life I thought that the middleclass was safe because they wouldn't dare screw over them, they know what it's like to live a nice life raise your kids send them to college and watch them have a good life. I always though they would screw the poor folks because they had nothing to lose so they wouldn't miss it. Man was I wrong. The greedy are pissing on our leg and telling us it's raining. We all have to wake up and stand together party, religion, race doesn't mean a thing they are going to have us at each others throats. While they walk away smiling! Glad I got that off my chest, but think about it, it's not too late.

[RickO]

Originally Posted by vegascouple

Do you really think large corporation and the wealthiest 1% can't pay anymore?

Sure they can. Assuming all the figures quoted on corporations and their low/negative tax rates... I think it's criminal and needs to be fixed... if it can be done without causing even more jobs to be sent overseas.

I guess my concern surrounds the fact that 5% of individual tax payers pay 60% of all personal income taxes and can face incremental tax rates of 50% or more when state income taxes are included... all while nearly half of our citizens pay no income tax at all. It kind of smacks (even more) of the "S Word" to me... socialism. As taxes on the "rich" get higher and subsidies for the "poor" grow greater the incentive to work hard and become rich seems to diminish IMHO.

Not a pretty situation no matter how it's sliced.

Rick

[Dixieray53]

If you want the facts read this...It will make your eyes bleed...The bottom line is we spend too much and take in to little...Peace...D

The Tax Foundation - Summary of Latest Federal Individual Income Tax Data

[RickO]

Originally Posted by Dixieray53

If you want the facts read this...It will make your eyes bleed...The bottom line is we spend too much and take in to little...Peace...D

The Tax Foundation - Summary of Latest Federal Individual Income Tax Data

That's some great stuff... but you're right about it making my eyes bleed. I haven't followed any of the related links yet but it's going to be some reading material over the next few days.

Thanks again...

Rick

[Piker]

Well, this thread is interesting... so I'm gonna throw my $.02 in.

The current economy, as compared with the Economy of the 90's when I was graduating high school, seems terrible... but I'm not so sure it really is. Sure we all probably had more money in our pockets back then, but much of that money was an illusion anyways. What people considered "ownership" was nothing more than indentured servitude to the creditors. It's like the whole decade was built on false impressions of what wealth actually is... both in the business world and in people's personal economies. At least in the current economy, people and businesses are forced to cling to things that have actual value.

I think the perceived affluence of the 90's bred complacency in my generation... we thought that whatever we wanted we could have... that if you worked hard your success would be guaranteed. That the only way was up, and thus buying on credit was the thing to do since you could be "certain" you would be able to pay for it once you got that big raise or that big profit sharing check... But life sometimes has it's own ideas about these things.

A little bit of my own story... I ended my college days early and went into the precision machining industry in 1995. At the time, it was a booming trade. I served an apprenticeship, got my journeyman's card, and was on my way. Or so I thought. After 9/11, as with many other industries, the market for our trade went belly up. Over half the tool shops in our area went under, and those that survived downsized sometimes by 50 and 60%. You had to be a top notch toolmaker to survive, and being good at what you did was no guarantee. Since then, the shops that have survived seem to be chugging along well enough. Having been forced to learn how to work smarter and more efficiently during difficult times along with diminished domestic competition has allowed some manner of growth over the past 5 or 6 years. So while our market is not what it used to be... it is seemingly somewhat more stable now. This goes back to the perceived vs. actual wealth and ownership idea.

I also dabbled in a sideline business of my own for the last three years, and finally decided to sell out this last spring. Not because I couldn't make a go of it... quite the contrary actually... but because of a priority shift away from money and stuff and towards family values (thus the desire to someday own an rv in which to spend time with the wife and children). Now that I have worked a full time job plus another full time job running a small business, I have the utmost respect for people who build successful businesses from scratch, and who do it with honesty and integrity, and who can hold their family lives together while they do it. To be honest, I think people who can do that have the very hand of God carrying them through because it is just about impossible to do anymore. If even half of the americans inhabiting this great nation could see what the average middle income small business owner has to face each morning when they get out of bed, I think we would be a better nation by leaps and bounds. No ifs ands or buts about it. Endless taxes, endless licensing, endless regulation, endless cash flow issues, endless workforce issues, etc etc etc... few people have a clue... and it's only getting tougher. The epa alone has put into effect clean air regulations that will cost small business billions of dollars over the next few years. This from a bureaucracy with zero accountability to the american voter... but i digress.

As far as jobs heading overseas... I know all about that, and I know just how it feels. I think some tariffs are probably necessary when countries don't play fair, ie communist china... but at the end of the day, if we are to be wealthy as a nation (and thus wealthy as individuals) our country needs to export more than we import. It's great as american citizens to buy american, and even better to buy from our local communities, but that won't do us any good if we're in a trade deficit situation... and the only way to avoid that is by dreaming up stuff that the rest of the world wants, and by being able to make said stuff of higher quality and value than anyone else. The cool thing is, we as americans are great at that... the only problem is, like I said earlier, the seemingly insurmountable wall that gets thrown at small business...

anywho... that's all for now... I'll probably get thrown off the forum for my very first post being so terribly long. Ah well... c'est la vie.

-cheers

[RickO]

Originally Posted by Piker

As far as jobs heading overseas... I know all about that, and I know just how it feels. I think some tariffs are probably necessary when countries don't play fair, ie communist china... but at the end of the day, if we are to be wealthy as a nation (and thus wealthy as individuals) our country needs to export more than we import. It's great as american citizens to buy american, and even better to buy from our local communities, but that won't do us any good if we're in a trade deficit situation... and the only way to avoid that is by dreaming up stuff that the rest of the world wants, and by being able to make said stuff of higher quality and value than anyone else. The cool thing is, we as americans are great at that... the only problem is, like I said earlier, the seemingly insurmountable wall that gets thrown at small business...

anywho... that's all for now... I'll probably get thrown off the forum for my very first post being so terribly long. Ah well... c'est la vie.

-cheers

First of all... and I do think that's about the longest first post I've ever seen but IMO you're hit the nail on the head regarding us needing to reverse our trade balance by "dreaming up things that the rest of the world wants."

Welcome

Rick

[hondo122]

Originally Posted by RickO

Sure they can. Assuming all the figures quoted on corporations and their low/negative tax rates... I think it's criminal and needs to be fixed... if it can be done without causing even more jobs to be sent overseas.

I guess my concern surrounds the fact that 5% of individual tax payers pay 60% of all personal income taxes and can face incremental tax rates of 50% or more when state income taxes are included... all while nearly half of our citizens pay no income tax at all. It kind of smacks (even more) of the "S Word" to me... socialism. As taxes on the "rich" get higher and subsidies for the "poor" grow greater the incentive to work hard and become rich seems to diminish IMHO.

Not a pretty situation no matter how it's sliced.

Rick

Ricko, are we to be held hostage by big business with threats of pulling more jobs off shore? They think they own us but they don't, the citizens need to unite regardless of party, religion or race and tell the politicians that they work for us. If they don't get it then they should go!

[Aguyfromcalg]

Originally Posted by RickO

First of all... and I do think that's about the longest first post I've ever seen but IMO you're hit the nail on the head regarding us needing to reverse our trade balance by "dreaming up things that the rest of the world wants."

Welcome

Rick

You guys did have things that most of the world wanted . It just had to say Made in United States on the label Now you have a hard time to find that

[RickO]

Originally Posted by hondo122

Ricko, are we to be held hostage by big business with threats of pulling more jobs off shore? They think they own us but they don't, the citizens need to unite regardless of party, religion or race and tell the politicians that they work for us. If they don't get it then they should go!

I don't disagree with the second half of your statement at all Mike. I'm all for a good houscleaning.... although they seem to be dropping like flies on their own.

As for jobs going overseas, it just seems to me that business is business and if it gets too expensive for them to do business in one place... they'll go somewhere else... and we as shareholders would demand nothing less.

A sad state of affairs... but a good discussion.

Rick

[Mr_D]

In 1969 I was earning $432 a month (about 2.70/hr) and could fill my gas tank (Buick GS 400) for around $5. Now I make $8.62/hr and it takes more than $50 (about 6 hr's work) to fill my Honda Ody's gas tank. So how much have I gained? I left out all deductions to make it easier to figure.