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Old 10-05-2012, 09:29 AM   #43
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"A 10% concentration of ethanol alone is not going to be seat-of-the-pants detectable." As an old hottrodder, some people can "feel" a difference, some cannot. Just the way it is. Before I learned how to read spark plugs in my Mopar's, I could "feel" the difference by changing carb jets by 1 number. Some friends I raced with could not feel the difference in carb jets in a 4 number change. Part of that is knowing your vehicle, not by any means am I saying everybody should notice the change, but it is there !
As stated, it is a Fact that it takes more alcohol to produce the same heat/power from a given quantity. The newer computer controlled engines adjust for junk (alcohol) gas by backing off the timing to prevent knocking/pinging/pre-ignition, what ever you want to call it. Anytime you back the timing off of perfect, you LOSE power.... Sorry bout it....
So I agree IMO with the OP...
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Old 10-05-2012, 09:51 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by JimM68 View Post
ANY odb2 compliant, 1996 or newer gasoling engine CANNOT tell the difference. Really.
My chevy HHR can sure tell the difference between gas and ethanol whether it's a 10% blend or E85. The computer which keeps track of mileage tells me how many miles I can go on a full tank. When I use real gas and after a few tanks it indicates well over 400. On 10% it is just above 400, and on e85 it's closer to 360. Yes my driving habits will affect these numbers but for the most part drive the same day after day.

There is a difference, how much can be debated but there is a difference.
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Old 10-05-2012, 10:13 AM   #45
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Off subject a little, but I put 93 octane fuel in my MH last summer and it did help with power loss/elevation issues in Colorado. Also, I notice the MH has more off the line power, as does the car.

I've heard there is no difference in the fuel octane levels as far as performance goes, but I experienced the increase in off the line power and acceleration with premium vs regular unleaded.

Back in the 90's Colorado had ethanol in the fuels in the winter months mandatory, I had less power in the winter than in summer. Don't know if it was the seasons or the ethanol. I drove a 92 Town Car then.
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Old 10-05-2012, 12:14 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by monkey View Post
"A 10% concentration of ethanol alone is not going to be seat-of-the-pants detectable." As an old hottrodder, some people can "feel" a difference, some cannot. Just the way it is. Before I learned how to read spark plugs in my Mopar's, I could "feel" the difference by changing carb jets by 1 number. Some friends I raced with could not feel the difference in carb jets in a 4 number change. Part of that is knowing your vehicle, not by any means am I saying everybody should notice the change, but it is there !
As stated, it is a Fact that it takes more alcohol to produce the same heat/power from a given quantity. The newer computer controlled engines adjust for junk (alcohol) gas by backing off the timing to prevent knocking/pinging/pre-ignition, what ever you want to call it. Anytime you back the timing off of perfect, you LOSE power.... Sorry bout it....
So I agree IMO with the OP...
Monkey
If the overall octane is the same, there will be no timing changes.. If there is MORE than 10% ethanol then its actually the other way around - the timing is increased as theres higher octane in ethanol...

However, to actually make any difference, an engine would need to make use of variable compression as well as increased timing to get the most out of the higher octane fuel.. Which, of course, we dont have so the end result is a loss of NET power..
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Old 10-05-2012, 12:22 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Lincolnboy2 View Post
Off subject a little, but I put 93 octane fuel in my MH last summer and it did help with power loss/elevation issues in Colorado. Also, I notice the MH has more off the line power, as does the car.

I've heard there is no difference in the fuel octane levels as far as performance goes, but I experienced the increase in off the line power and acceleration with premium vs regular unleaded.

Back in the 90's Colorado had ethanol in the fuels in the winter months mandatory, I had less power in the winter than in summer. Don't know if it was the seasons or the ethanol. I drove a 92 Town Car then.
Use to be that engines designed for 87 octane saw no improvements with 93. Now a days, however, there are some engines that can detect the use of the higher octane (actually, they just bump up the timing until a knock is heard) and thus increase the timing and thus the power. The flip side to this is that if you use lower than recommended octane, you lose power. AND, on some engines, if used long enough, the ECU will 'lock' the timing permanently for the lower octane fuel, even if you put in 93 later it will remain at a reduced timing. My '96 Audi 2.8 does this and is noted in the service manual..
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Old 10-05-2012, 12:33 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Wayne M
Corn in grocery store, 3 for $1 (when on sale). Hmm! One Dozen = $4.

Strange, that it's the same amount of money for a dozen ears of corn as it is for 1 gallon of gas, or is it?

Math question of the day. How many ears of corn does it take to make 10% of a gallon (6.4 oz) of ethanol?

I really like ears of corn, but I like to travel also, so the eating of corn takes second place.
I hate to jump ahead, but Wayne, where are you buying that corn?
Here in Illinois, from july to october, corn is 12 ears for a buck!
that's in the big grocery stores, farmers market is even cheaper.
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Old 10-05-2012, 12:41 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by monkey
"A 10% concentration of ethanol alone is not going to be seat-of-the-pants detectable." As an old hottrodder, some people can "feel" a difference, some cannot. Just the way it is. Before I learned how to read spark plugs in my Mopar's, I could "feel" the difference by changing carb jets by 1 number. Some friends I raced with could not feel the difference in carb jets in a 4 number change. Part of that is knowing your vehicle, not by any means am I saying everybody should notice the change, but it is there !
As stated, it is a Fact that it takes more alcohol to produce the same heat/power from a given quantity. The newer computer controlled engines adjust for junk (alcohol) gas by backing off the timing to prevent knocking/pinging/pre-ignition, what ever you want to call it. Anytime you back the timing off of perfect, you LOSE power.... Sorry bout it....
So I agree IMO with the OP...
Monkey
whutever...

an "old hotrodder" eh?
Then I would think you would know that ethanol has higher knock resistance than gasoline, and therefore will take more timing.
That's why the difference at 10% is pretty much undetectable. You're odb2 EFI motor is cranking the timing, as well as automatically adjusting the fuel mixture. Power difference is minimal. mileage difference (at 10% ethanol) is barely measureable.

Really... at 10%, the only engines that can tell are carbed 2 strokes, specifically high performance outboard motors. but that's a whole nother discussion.
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