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Old 09-18-2016, 11:47 AM   #337
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Looks fantastic! I love looking at other people's projects and getting inspired (read "want to do that too!"), don't you?
Yes, and it does not take as much effort.
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Old 09-18-2016, 12:00 PM   #338
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Today was a slow day out in the shop. My wife's BMW came home with a flat, so I had to shuffle everything around so that I could get my tire machines out. I keep almost all of my machines on pallets so I can move them around with a pallet truck when I need them. The tire was beyond repair, so I had to put a new one on. Fortunately I had a used spare tire lying around.

Since I had the tire machines out, I figured I would unmount all of the Elandan's tires that I wasn't using. The Elandan frame is only sitting on 4 wheels right now, and it'll be a while before I need more than that. The tire and rim combination is rather heavy to handle, so separating them makes putting them in storage a lot easier. The date code on all of the tires are from the 90's, so they are only usable for shop tires.

It all starts with removing the tire stem and letting the air out. Then breaking the tire bead. The nice thing with the 19.5 inch tires is there is no seating bead on the rim, so they are easy to break loose.


Just lifting them up on the tire machine is a chore. I definitely have respect for the guys who do this all day long. Then comes dismounting the tire using the rotating table, a tire iron, and the machine arm.


Repeat for the inner bead and pretty soon the tire is off the rim.


Remove the tire and all you are left with is an old rusty rim.


Repeat 4 times, and there is a manageable set of rims and tires.


After having wrestled the Elandan wheels, the BMW wheel with it's aluminum rim seemed to weigh next to nothing.


Now that the rims are separated, I'll haul them off to the blaster's next time I go there, probably some time in the spring. Right now my arms are too tired.
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Old 09-18-2016, 02:28 PM   #339
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You mean to say you have a tire machine but do not have a sand blasting booth??????

Laugh, I am joking with you.

I would highly recommend you look into one with the amount of brackets, hardware, and doodads you will have to refinish.



I see an oven in the back ground, do you have a powder coat gun. If not I cannot tell you how badly you need one.

First off is the convenience. Blast a part, heat it to out gas it, let it cool, put the powder on, and heat again, let it cool again. The part is now fully cured and you can mount it.

The gun is very inexpensive and you do not need anything fancy. I dislike Harbor Freight but in this case it is all you need.



Paint and you wait for ever.

You can get a good size electric oven for powder coat at a restaurant going out of business action.

I got this one off fee-bay



The biggest expense is the air compressor to run the sand blast properly.

I have two 5 hp four cylinder Quincy compressors.

I hardly ever paint anything any more.

If interested I will do some writing on this subject for you. It really is almost manitroy with the project you are taking on.

This stuff can pay for itself if you desire, I buy control arms off fee-bay (that hard job is done for you, it is taken off the car) and refinish them and resell them. I will not provide (I do not want the moderators to think I am advertising here, I am just pass information on) the link to this sale but if you look you will find it ( GM Original 1964 - 1972 Chevelle Front Control Lower Arms Ball Joints Bushings) (I paid $50.00 including shipping and selling them for $299)



You cannot beat the finish for durability (this is semigloss)

A tumbler works really well to brighten up used bolts
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Old 09-18-2016, 02:49 PM   #340
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You mean to say you have a tire machine but do not have a sand blasting booth??????
Actually, I do. But it's not quite big enough for the 19.5 inch rims, and I drop off bigger items that I don't feel like blasting myself. My blaster doesn't charge all that much if I am not in a rush.

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I see an oven in the back ground, do you have a powder coat gun. If not I cannot tell you how badly you need one.
It's on my Christmas list!

[QUOTE=GlennLever;3259378]You can get a good size electric oven for powder coat at a restaurant going out of business action.
[/QOUTE]

Also on my Christmas list! Even thought about building one from a regular oven.

The oven in the background I use for heating up cast iron for welding, and the pieces that require heating for press fit bushings, etc. The electric cook top comes in very handy for bigger pieces.

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The biggest expense is the air compressor to run the sand blast properly.

I have two 5 hp four cylinder Quincy compressors.
I have two compressors, one 4 hp and one 5 hp that run in parallel. Not as nice as the Quincy compressors, but they get the job done.

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If interested I will do some writing on this subject for you. It really is almost mandatory with the project you are taking on.
I have never tried powder coating, but I have read quite a bit about it. Certainly doesn't seem that hard. I already have a paint booth that I can use for the electrostatic coating. I just need the gun and paint and the oven and....

Unfortunately I have been given a moratorium on new toys for the time being. Can't understand why.

I am also in the process of building my own cnc router table for small jobs like interior pieces. It will be able to do plastic, wood and aluminum. It's just fallen a bit off schedule lately. I seem to not have enough hours in the day.
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Old 09-18-2016, 03:20 PM   #341
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Wow! Talk about coincidences.

I was just looking in my toolbox at some go-to specialty tools that I need on the job out in the field. Since I have a crew with me then, I want to be able to find a couple of special nut-drivers in a hurry. I spray painted them yellow a few years ago, but the paint is wearing/chipping off. I also want my specialty tools to look sharp in front of clients. It's a marketing thing.

So, I started to research powder-coating as a DIY project.

THEN, I check the forum and you guys are discussing powder-coating!

So, thanks for the info you have posted, GlennLever.

I may want to try it on some small parts for customer projects as well to keep certain things color-coordinated. It would be much better than spray painting visible screw heads and such.
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Old 09-18-2016, 04:10 PM   #342
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It is very easy, with a couple of of caveats.

Inside Corners are tricky, power is attracted electrolytiscly, ferritate effect cause the power to go to the closest thing which is not the corner, reduce the voltage and you can coat the corner. Put a little heat in the item you are coating and powder that does not want to stick will, but you have to be careful not to get it too thick.

You do not want to use your paint booth for powder, the next time you paint you will have dust in your paint. Small pieces, get a cardboard movers closet. cut one side out. put a bathroom fan at the top, blow the exhaust out across a pail of water to stop the powder from going everywhere in your shop.

I'll put a little primmer together. You will love powder coat! Start to finish (fully cured) you can have a part ready to bolt on in two hours.

Powder is VERY tough, great for under carriage stuff. You can do some fancy things with it also and not need much skill.

Here is an example, step one powder coat the whole thing with Super Chrome, tape off everything but the scoop opening and powder coat that with red candy, tape of the scoop opening, powder coat the whole thing with chevy orange, take a die grinder and two inch disc and grind off the powder on the fins, untape everything and powder coat high gloss clear.

The intake was also powder coated, as well as the valve covers (I love powder coat, once you use it you will be addicted.

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Old 09-19-2016, 12:30 AM   #343
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It is very easy, with a couple of of caveats.

Inside Corners are tricky, power is attracted electrolytiscly, ferritate effect cause the power to go to the closest thing which is not the corner, reduce the voltage and you can coat the corner. Put a little heat in the item you are coating and powder that does not want to stick will, but you have to be careful not to get it too thick.

You do not want to use your paint booth for powder, the next time you paint you will have dust in your paint. Small pieces, get a cardboard movers closet. cut one side out. put a bathroom fan at the top, blow the exhaust out across a pail of water to stop the powder from going everywhere in your shop.

I'll put a little primmer together. You will love powder coat! Start to finish (fully cured) you can have a part ready to bolt on in two hours.

Powder is VERY tough, great for under carriage stuff. You can do some fancy things with it also and not need much skill.
Thanks Glenn!

What kind of surface prep is required? I'm guessing that as with paint, the key is in the prep.
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Old 09-19-2016, 09:51 AM   #344
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Thanks Glenn!

What kind of surface prep is required? I'm guessing that as with paint, the key is in the prep.
There are many different opinions. Some get very fancy.

Powder is not as finicky as paint, and powder will never take the place of paint. By that I mean you can get a very good finish with powder, but it will never approach the glass finish you can get with paint. On the other hand it is much more durable than paint. It is essentially plastic that you melt onto a surface. It does not chip, resists gas, alcohol, holds up well to abuse.

On to your question, surface prep, and along the way I will pass on a number of important points.

I sand blast to give the surface an even texture (profile), and a surface to give powder to grip. I use black beauty. It is not a really course grit, but not as fine as glass bead. It cuts through old paint and rust quickly.

Removing powder coat is a different story. I have yet to find a good way to remove powder. I have heard that there are some chemical processes, but I have not tried any. On a piece that I might get that has been powder coated, I give up and move on.

Back to surface preparation, I blow the piece off really well with an air gun (to remove any dust from the sand blasting).

Some people then wipe down the piece with acetone to remove any oil or grease that may be on the surface either from the original piece or from "dirty sand". When I do control arms some of them are full of tar, grease and oil.

On a really dirty piece I use cheap paint automotive thinner. Believe it or not that is pretty much all you have to do to prepare a piece of metal for powder coat. There are some other points we need to talk about.

1) First important point. When you blow air past the surface of a piece metal you are pretty much doing the same thing you do when you rub a balloon on your hair. You are blowing electrons off the surface of the piece of metal and giving it a static charge. This is bad, as powder coat is an electrostatic process. So...you want to remove that charge. The process to remove the charge is actually also the second important point and leads me into the third one.

2) The way to remove the charge is to put it in the oven and heat it. The oven is the third important topic 3) You want an electric oven, not gas, and you want a convection oven (nothing elaborate is needed, just a fan to move the air around). I was lucky and found a laboratory oven on Fee-bay (it had a 1 HP variable speed convection fan in it). An oven from a restaurant will work just as well. You most likely will need nothing greater than 450 Degrees Fahrenheit (it goes without saying you will never cook food in this oven).

4) The third important point is out gassing. This is particularly important with new metal. In the process of making metal small amounts of gas gets trapped in the metal. When you heat the metal it helps the metal give off (out gas) those gasses. I go to 50 degrees hotter than I am going to cure at (Preheat the oven, leave it in for about 45 minutes) Remember powder coat is essentially melting plastic over the surface of metal. If you create a coating of plastic on the surface of a piece of metal and then you have a bubble of gas form you end up with a bubble in the surface of the melted plastic that stays forever.

5) Any step along the way can be done over again if you are not happy with the results. Get a bubble in your powder, let it cool, sand it with sand paper and re-coat it. If you do not put enough powder on and you get a "dry" surface, re-coat it. I have put as many as ten coats on stuff. 6) Here is a bad thing about powder, it is thick, this can effect mechanical things in that you will lose clearances.

7) It is almost impossible to get a run because you put to much on.

8) Between each heating let the piece fully cool before going on to the next step.

9) When you talk about temperatures and powder coat you are not talking about the oven temperature, but the actual temperature of the piece of metal. This is one reason why a convection oven is important. It helps in getting pieces up to temperature. 10) A little trick I use is I set the oven temperature a little hotter than the temperature I want the piece to be at. The piece temperature, I kind of cheat on, other wise you would be waiting a long time. 11) If I am doing a control arm, which is both fairly large and heavy gauge, and I am looking for a cure temperature of 400 degrees for ten minutes (which is pretty common), I put the arm into a preheated oven of 408 degrees for 45 minutes and call it done. As the piece gets closer to the oven temperature the rate of increase in temperature of the piece will slow down.

12) It helps getting a good finish if you put your powder coated pieces into a hot oven, it is not necessary, but I do seem to get a smoother surface if the pieces go into a preheated oven.

13) As we have talked temperatures a lot, you see the need for an infrared heat gun, correct?

So...there is not much to surface preparation, sand blast you piece, out gas it, powder coat it.

14) On last trick, when ever I am doing gloss work, even if the powder says "Gloss Black" I put a coat of High Gloss Clear on top of it. It gives the color lot of depth, and helps prevent scratches.

Wow...I did not mean to write this much stuff, but if you follow these steps you will get good results. As with anything do some practice pieces first. I have made it sound complicated but it really isn't.
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Old 09-19-2016, 11:23 AM   #345
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There are many different opinions. Some get very fancy.

Powder is not as finicky as paint, and powder will never take the place of paint. By that I mean you can get a very good finish with powder, but it will never approach the glass finish you can get with paint. On the other hand it is much more durable than paint. It is essentially plastic that you melt onto a surface. It does not chip, resists gas, alcohol, holds up well to abuse.

On to your question, surface prep, and along the way I will pass on a number of important points.

I sand blast to give the surface an even texture (profile), and a surface to give powder to grip. I use black beauty. It is not a really course grit, but not as fine as glass bead. It cuts through old paint and rust quickly.
I use aluminum oxide which is similar and also cut well through old paint and rust. Canít get Black Beauty over here, but I've heard a lot of good things about it.

Quote:
Removing powder coat is a different story. I have yet to find a good way to remove powder. I have heard that there are some chemical processes, but I have not tried any. On a piece that I might get that has been powder coated, I give up and move on.
The only way I have found is to sand it off with an angle grinder and wire wheel. Not fun!

Quote:
Back to surface preparation, I blow the piece off really well with an air gun (to remove any dust from the sand blasting).

Some people then wipe down the piece with acetone to remove any oil or grease that may be on the surface either from the original piece or from "dirty sand". When I do control arms some of them are full of tar, grease and oil.

On a really dirty piece I use cheap paint automotive thinner. Believe it or not that is pretty much all you have to do to prepare a piece of metal for powder coat. There are some other points we need to talk about.

1) First important point. When you blow air past the surface of a piece metal you are pretty much doing the same thing you do when you rub a balloon on your hair. You are blowing electrons off the surface of the piece of metal and giving it a static charge. This is bad, as powder coat is an electrostatic process. So...you want to remove that charge. The process to remove the charge is actually also the second important point and leads me into the third one.

2) The way to remove the charge is to put it in the oven and heat it. The oven is the third important topic
Did not know this was an issue that needed solving. Good to know.

Quote:
3) You want an electric oven, not gas, and you want a convection oven (nothing elaborate is needed, just a fan to move the air around). I was lucky and found a laboratory oven on Fee-bay (it had a 1 HP variable speed convection fan in it). An oven from a restaurant will work just as well. You most likely will need nothing greater than 450 Degrees Fahrenheit (it goes without saying you will never cook food in this oven).
The oven I have an electric oven, as most ovens over here are, but I didnít know about the need for the convection.

Quote:
4) The third important point is out gassing. This is particularly important with new metal. In the process of making metal small amounts of gas gets trapped in the metal. When you heat the metal it helps the metal give off (out gas) those gasses. I go to 50 degrees hotter than I am going to cure at (Preheat the oven, leave it in for about 45 minutes) Remember powder coat is essentially melting plastic over the surface of metal. If you create a coating of plastic on the surface of a piece of metal and then you have a bubble of gas form you end up with a bubble in the surface of the melted plastic that stays forever.
I suppose this applies to newly welded metal as well as new metal.

Quote:
5) Any step along the way can be done over again if you are not happy with the results. Get a bubble in your powder, let it cool, sand it with sand paper and re-coat it. If you do not put enough powder on and you get a "dry" surface, re-coat it. I have put as many as ten coats on stuff.


Quote:
6) Here is a bad thing about powder, it is thick, this can effect mechanical things in that you will lose clearances.
This would be expected. You run into the same thing with paint although not as bad.

Quote:
7) It is almost impossible to get a run because you put too much on.


Quote:
8) Between each heating let the piece fully cool before going on to the next step.
I'm guessing this is an important step.

Quote:
9) When you talk about temperatures and powder coat you are not talking about the oven temperature, but the actual temperature of the piece of metal. This is one reason why a convection oven is important. It helps in getting pieces up to temperature.
This is where youíre happy youíve invested in an infrared thermometer!

Quote:
10) A little trick I use is I set the oven temperature a little hotter than the temperature I want the piece to be at. The piece temperature, I kind of cheat on, otherwise you would be waiting a long time.
Makes sense.

Quote:
11) If I am doing a control arm, which is both fairly large and heavy gauge, and I am looking for a cure temperature of 400 degrees for ten minutes (which is pretty common), I put the arm into a preheated oven of 408 degrees for 45 minutes and call it done. As the piece gets closer to the oven temperature the rate of increase in temperature of the piece will slow down.
So youíre not worried about over-baking the powder coat then, I take it?

Quote:
12) It helps getting a good finish if you put your powder coated pieces into a hot oven, it is not necessary, but I do seem to get a smoother surface if the pieces go into a preheated oven.
Interesting. I suspect that the flash heat on the surface powder helps get the surface smooth.

Quote:
13) As we have talked temperatures a lot, you see the need for an infrared heat gun, correct?
Have one. A tool of 1001 uses!

Quote:
So...there is not much to surface preparation, sand blast you piece, out gas it, powder coat it.

14) On last trick, whenever I am doing gloss work, even if the powder says "Gloss Black" I put a coat of High Gloss Clear on top of it. It gives the color lot of depth, and helps prevent scratches.
Iíve read about this trick. Seems that ďGlossĒ isnít all that glossy.

Quote:
Wow...I did not mean to write this much stuff
Iím glad you did! Great info!

Quote:
I have made it sound complicated but it really isn't.
Actually, youíve made it sound fairly simple and straight forward.

Another question on powder coating: Have you ever tried powder coating polished aluminum? You mentioned that you blast it to give the powder grip, but I have a few polished aluminum items that I want to coat candy. Any tips?

Also, how would you compare the cost of powder to paint (not including the equipment)?
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Old 09-19-2016, 07:46 PM   #346
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GlennLever,
Nice explanation, thanks for sharing your knowledge with the rest of us.
Frank
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Old 09-19-2016, 08:04 PM   #347
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I’ve read about this trick. Seems that “Gloss” isn’t all that glossy.

Gloss powder is pretty glossy, the clear just adds another dimension of depth.

Another question on powder coating: Have you ever tried powder coating polished aluminum? You mentioned that you blast it to give the powder grip, but I have a few polished aluminum items that I want to coat candy. Any tips?

Some more interesting points, 1) yes I have put clear on polished aluminum. I've done it on wheels, it works ok...after a year or two the edges start to peel a little, also clear is not really clear, it knocks down the shine of polished aluminum, and has a slight yellow tint to it.

2) On the topic of candy. Candy works really well, as you try different colors of powder you will find that each have their own little quricks. Red goes on really well and produces a great effect. I like it a lot. Blue is a struggle, it is hard to get it to "stick", hard to get into corners, getting even coverage is difficult. the end result however is very pleasing.

3) Candies are a "clear" top coat and have a lot of the same properties of candy paint (the more you put on the darker the color, it needs to be applied over a base coat, the candies take on different hues depending on the base coat)

The metal you put candy on does not matter. "They" want you to put a shinny solid color gray down first as a base coat, and then put the candy top coat on over the top of the solid color gray. I put down super chrome first and then the candy on top. I'll come back to this, but let me say this first. 4) Do not let the term super chrome get you excited. The industry likes to talk up super chrome I try to discourage any customer from using it. the results are very disappointing.

5) as an aside powder is a lot like ceramic glazes, when you apply the power the color is different from the end result when cured, the colors are achieved in different ways. 6) Super chrome is achieved by using aluminum, and must be clear coated or it will "corrode". If you wipe the surface of powder coat chrome it will streak. It looks ok until you put clear on it. It then dulls down and looks like shinny silver, nothing like chrome. 7) I have asked and tried many different process to try and get a good result from chrome but it is always disappointing.

8) The one good thing I have found with super chrome is it makes a great base coat for the candies. As candy is really a top coat it protects the super chrome from tarnishing or streaking. 9) as super chrome is a solid color base coat you can put it over any metal and achieve the deep lushish candy color on any metal, it can be polished aluminum, but really makes no difference what the metal is you get the same effect. So on the polished aluminum (I know it hurts) but sand blast it put the super chrome on it and then top coat it with the candy.

Also, how would you compare the cost of powder to paint (not including the equipment)?

You need to get a supplier, people who carry lots of colors tend to want to sell large quantities.

If you buy a pound it costs more than if you buy ten pounds. A pound will do several sets of valve covers, or a couple, three, intakes. "They" say powder has a self life of six months, I have used powder that has sat around for years with no problems.

Small quantities are going to be about twice as expensive as paint. When you buy in larger quantities it is MUCH cheaper than paint. Paint prices vary depending on what you buy, I am talking about paint prices of spray can quality of paint.

These are the people that I use. Powder Coating Colors they will sell any color or quantity that you want. I'm sure if you look you will find a similar pace over there.

You can buy powder of fee-bay if you want, but they charge a lot.

Here is an example of fee-bay for a pound of Sherwin Williams Mirror Gloss Black Powder Coat Paint - New (1LB) (like I said you can do several sets of valve covers, or a couple, three, intakes) will cost $14.98 with free shipping. I am not sure of the quality of this powder though http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sherwin-Will...8AAOSwOVpXe7OQ



If you look at the top edge on the powder coated piece they used in their ad you will see some of the "orange Peel" effect you get when you powder coat and try an imitate paint. If you accept that limitation of powder, you will love it. On flat or semigloss color it is not a concern.

I'll say it again once you try powder you will fall in love. I have converted my paint booth into a powder application area and will never go back to paint.

No wait time to use a part, and the finish is MUCH more durable.

Understand that power will never take the place of a glass smooth paint surface, but it is close. Imagine a painted surface with some orange peel and that is what powder looks like.

Let me add one more thing to surface preparation. Powder will not "hide" or "fill in" rust pits. It will conform to the pit and if anything esentuate it. You want as flat a surface as you can get within reason. Try a couple of pieces and you will find out what you can "get away with"

Glenn
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Old 09-19-2016, 08:24 PM   #348
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powder is as durable as urethanes? I thought they are pretty tough
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Old 09-19-2016, 08:40 PM   #349
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GlennLever,

Great info!

Question: What type of powder coatings are you discussing? I ran across this doing a Google search:

"Thermosetting powders are derived from four generic types of resins: epoxy, acrylic, polyester and fluoropolymer."

Thanks.
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Old 09-19-2016, 11:31 PM   #350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deano56 View Post
powder is as durable as urethanes? I thought they are pretty tough
urethanes usually refer to primer, powder can also be urethane, they are very strong, you really need to know what you are doing when you spray them.

Powder urethanes are not in a liquid form and only give of fumes when heated. Note my oven is vented outside (actually I use the old hot water flue in the chimney.

See the top of the oven



I would say they are almost evil, certainly nasty, but strong.

You should have a full body suit, and fresh air mask when painting urethane.

Comparing them to powder is though. Urethane is very "hard" it can chip. Powder is softer, and can scratch, but is not as likely to chip.

urethane is a paint, they are different products and have different strong an weak points. I would not powder coat a car, I would paint one with urethane.

I cannot give you an answer on this one


Quote:
Originally Posted by cwk View Post
GlennLever,

Great info!

Question: What type of powder coatings are you discussing? I ran across this doing a Google search:

"Thermosetting powders are derived from four generic types of resins: epoxy, acrylic, polyester and fluoropolymer."

Thanks.
I use prismatic colors and the formula is different for each color.

You can tell what it is by the first letter in the color number



They all apply in the same manner

Prismatic Powder Safety Data Sheets (SDS) can be found by clicking the on the "document" tab from our menu. At the bottom of the Document drop down menu you will find the SDS section. You will need to know the powder Color Code for each specific color in question to determine which SDS to use. Each powder color has a corresponding color code after the color name. For example, Polished Aluminum has a color code HSS-2345. H=Hybrid S=Solid tone
For help understanding Color Codes please refer to the Prismatic Color Code section also in the Documents menu.


Prismatic Powders: How do I know which powders contain TGIC?

Gloss black (P-0106s) and gloss clear (PPS-2947) are polyester
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