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Old 05-28-2013, 01:31 PM   #29
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John,
I think his pictures in post 25 sort of tell the story about the lack of a control board.

Dave
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Old 05-28-2013, 03:05 PM   #30
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For reference, they show pin orientation on the physical drawing on page 40. CR1 is at the top of the page (they show 2 different possibilities for CR1). Given they used the same colored wire most everywhere, I see they at least printed the wire numbers on them which correlates to the numbers on the wiring diagram. Wire #14 is the feed for the Fuel pump from CR1 pin 7 (Pin 6 on alternate). Wire #15 (CR1 Pin 12 [alternate pin 9?])is the fused source to the relay.

Dave
Right as I was finishing the tests on the CR1 relay it started to rain, I had to go inside. It just stopped and I took a quick look before it starts again and right at the bottom of the third pic you can see the terminal connection with 5 each number 14 blue wires, I think I might just have a bad connection, I could see one #14 wire run from the start switch to that terminal block and if that block feeds the pump it stands to reason if the relay is good and it feeds to that block the pump should run. Later today or tomorrow I will run a jumper to see if I can make the pump run and clean all those contacts, keep good thoughts for me and just wait till I tell you my next RV adventure or screw up
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Old 05-28-2013, 03:09 PM   #31
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Pic 3 - Control box: The black block mounted to the bottom of the enclosure with 5 wires attached looks to be the terminal block for the #14 wire.

Open or shorted - Looking to see if any of the wires connected to CR1 is shorted to ground or another wire or if they there is an open from CR1 to the point where they are supposed to be connected

Referring page 40 (PDF page 42) [CR1 pin numbers are different for alternate relay]
Wire 56 - Goes from CR1 pin 2 (NC) to one of the small pins on the Starter Solenoid
Wire 14 - Goes from CR1 pin 7 (NO) to the terminal block (fuel pump B+ feed wire)
Wire 15 - Goes from CR1 pin 12 to Fuse F1 (B+ source for wire 56 in Start mode AND wire 14 in RUN mode)
Wire 66 - Goes from CR1 pin 13 (relay coil) to Battery Charge Rectifier (BCR if the Diode is bad CR1 will not energize)
Wire 56A - Goes from CR1 pin 14 (relay coil) to R2 to R1 (Test 19). Before connecting the wire back to R1 at end of Test 19 simply measure the resistance across R2 (47ohms).

CR1 Relay coil will have a very small resistance

CR1 gets energized by the voltage produced across the generator Battery Charge Windings and R2 combination.

Your symptom Fuel pump shuts off when you release the start switch indicates CR1 is not energizing (no voltage on #14 wire from CR pin 7)

Dave
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Old 05-28-2013, 03:12 PM   #32
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Good luck
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Old 05-28-2013, 07:11 PM   #33
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Good luck
Thanks
Just thought about something, please go back to post one, the gen was running fine until I changed the regulator, then this new problem started. I am, or I was, very confident I hooked up the 6 wires to the new regulator exactly the same as I took them off the old one.
I have loosened the control box and have it down at an angle so I can better see what I am doing.
Please confirm the wire numbers on page 35 figure 45 are correct, the figure shows 4 of the wires in dotted line form.
Could it be possible that if I had one set of wires connected backwards it would keep from feeding power to the CR1 relay?

also the pictures appear that there is a lot of room to work in the control box, there is no room at all, my hand is almost bigger then the inside of that box

I do plan to clean all the connectors tomorrow providing it does not rain again, can't hurt
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Old 05-28-2013, 09:00 PM   #34
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The battery charge circuit is independent of the AC output circuit. You can see the isolation on the schematic on page 39.

I am hesitant about Figure 45. The physical connection drawing on page 40 and the wiring diagram in the operators manual show different wire numbers and connection points for the regulator. I lean more towards page 40 hookup to the regulator. However, from what I have seen in your pictures I would expect to see wire numbers 11S and 22S printed on the the wires themselves. Is there by chance terminal/wire numbers imprented on the edge of the regulator case. Looks like there is on some of the regulator pictures I have seen.

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Old 05-28-2013, 09:01 PM   #35
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BTW - You should be able to use the page 40 (pdf 42) diagram for point to point connections.

Dave
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:18 PM   #36
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John,
I think his pictures in post 25 sort of tell the story about the lack of a control board.

Dave
Dave and Bilito-
I had no intention to say you were wrong, only that my memory had failed me. Also without my home computer and reference to files, dealing with only a phone with very bad picture viewing I failed.

Apparently my desire to help over-road some common sence on this complicated subject. My apologies if I caused any undo work. My internet connection at home tomorrow will be restored and I will continue to monitor with interest.

John....
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Old 05-29-2013, 05:25 AM   #37
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Pic 3 - Control box: The black block mounted to the bottom of the enclosure with 5 wires attached looks to be the terminal block for the #14 wire.

Open or shorted - Looking to see if any of the wires connected to CR1 is shorted to ground or another wire or if they there is an open from CR1 to the point where they are supposed to be connected

Referring page 40 (PDF page 42) [CR1 pin numbers are different for alternate relay]
Wire 56 - Goes from CR1 pin 2 (NC) to one of the small pins on the Starter Solenoid
Wire 14 - Goes from CR1 pin 7 (NO) to the terminal block (fuel pump B+ feed wire)
Wire 15 - Goes from CR1 pin 12 to Fuse F1 (B+ source for wire 56 in Start mode AND wire 14 in RUN mode)
Wire 66 - Goes from CR1 pin 13 (relay coil) to Battery Charge Rectifier (BCR if the Diode is bad CR1 will not energize)
Wire 56A - Goes from CR1 pin 14 (relay coil) to R2 to R1 (Test 19). Before connecting the wire back to R1 at end of Test 19 simply measure the resistance across R2 (47ohms).

CR1 Relay coil will have a very small resistance

CR1 gets energized by the voltage produced across the generator Battery Charge Windings and R2 combination.

Your symptom Fuel pump shuts off when you release the start switch indicates CR1 is not energizing (no voltage on #14 wire from CR pin 7)

Dave
Dave my CR! is the original style not the altrernate style, if that makes it easier for you, It is pouring rain right now and is forcast to do so for the next few days, I will try to rig something to work under to solve this issue
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Old 05-29-2013, 05:38 AM   #38
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Dave my CR! is the original style not the altrernate style, if that makes it easier for you,
It is pouring rain right now and is forcast to do so for the next few days, I will try to rig something to work under to solve this issue
How does one check for an open or short in a wire, I notice all the
instructions say to do this
I have an electronic specialties full service Multimeter model M-530 with direct peak reading capability (DVA)
Where do I plug which wire into the meter and what am I supposed to see on the meter for an open line and a shorted line, all instruction assume the user is well qualified on the meter, I am well qualified measuring voltage and checking for continuity after that I am lost
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Old 05-29-2013, 06:25 AM   #39
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Remove a wire from it's connection point and you have an open. Take that disconnected wire touch it to ground or to another wire (i.e touch a #14 to a #15 wire) and you have a short. So, you are simply making sure the wires for a given device are not open; i.e.: a wire connector was not properly crimped or is corroded so the signal no longer getting through; or the insulation has rubbed through from vibration and shorting to ground or to another wire. This is as much about common sense observation as it is doing continuity tests of a wire itself. Hope that makes sense.

When the rain lets you get back to having fun with this, connect your meter across the pins for wires 66 and 56A on CR1 to measure voltage. Start the generator and see if there is voltage across those wires. You will be measuring the voltage drop across the relay coil when running. Not sure what the value should be but there should be voltage there.

Ref page 39 schematic - You can have a problem in any of the following:
A. CR1 Relay
B. Resister R2
C. Resister R1
D. Battery charge winding - while both legs are used for battery charging, only one leg is used for CR1 relay operation
E. Battery Charge Rectifier (BCR) - Forms a half wave rectifier. Only one of the diodes is used in the CR1 relay circuit.

Dave
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Old 05-29-2013, 08:10 AM   #40
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Remove a wire from it's connection point and you have an open. Take that disconnected wire touch it to ground or to another wire (i.e touch a #14 to a #15 wire) and you have a short. So, you are simply making sure the wires for a given device are not open; i.e.: a wire connector was not properly crimped or is corroded so the signal no longer getting through; or the insulation has rubbed through from vibration and shorting to ground or to another wire. This is as much about common sense observation as it is doing continuity tests of a wire itself. Hope that makes sense.

When the rain lets you get back to having fun with this, connect your meter across the pins for wires 66 and 56A on CR1 to measure voltage. Start the generator and see if there is voltage across those wires. You will be measuring the voltage drop across the relay coil when running. Not sure what the value should be but there should be voltage there.

Ref page 39 schematic - You can have a problem in any of the following:
A. CR1 Relay
B. Resister R2
C. Resister R1
D. Battery charge winding - while both legs are used for battery charging, only one leg is used for CR1 relay operation
E. Battery Charge Rectifier (BCR) - Forms a half wave rectifier. Only one of the diodes is used in the CR1 relay circuit.

Dave
got most of the tie wraps off the bundles I have batt voltage on wire 15 pin 12 on the cr1
also have batt voltage on wire 56 pin 2.
disconnected wire 14 from cr1 and checked for continuity between that wire and the terminal connector block,there is cotintinuity there
I hooked up a test light on the term connector to ground, it works when I hit the starter button but cuts off the second I let go of the starter button
checked the wires on the regulator they are not numbered
its raining again break time
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Old 05-29-2013, 08:15 AM   #41
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got most of the tie wraps off the bundles I have batt voltage on wire 15 pin 12 on the cr1
also have batt voltage on wire 56 pin 2.
disconnected wire 14 from cr1 and checked for continuity between that wire and the terminal connector block,there is cotintinuity there
I hooked up a test light on the term connector to ground, it works when I hit the starter button but cuts off the second I let go of the starter button
checked the wires on the regulator they are not numbered
its raining again break time
ref the resistor R2 in wire 55 connected to pin 14 would that appear like a crimp fitting? so far I have not located resistor R1
are these resitors things I can change?
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Old 05-29-2013, 10:58 AM   #42
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Quote:
I have not located resistor R1
Operators manual, Parts page 24, Ietm 40 (mounted to left oustide wall of that compartment you are working in.

Quote:
ref the resistor R2 in wire 55 connected to pin 14
Most likely embedded in the wire somewhere between pin 14 and R1. May have shrink sleeving over it.

Please note that a generator winding only produces AC therefore the CR1 circuit is actually an AC not DC circuit formed as follows (page 39 schematic):
Charge winding center point to wire 55, to R2 to Wire 56A to CR1 pin 14 to CR1 coil to CR1 Pin 13 to wire 66 and back to charge winding. Charge winding is the AC voltage source (like a battery in a DC circuit). When the generator spins up (motor running) an AC voltage is produced by the charge winding which is used to energize the CR1 relay. A very simple 3 component (RH charge winding, R2, CR1) AC circuit.

Before you ask, both Battery Charge Windings are also connected to the diodes in the BCR. The BCR diodes convert the AC voltage to a DC voltage used to charge the battery however that is not used to energize the CR1 relay.

Quote:
I hooked up a test light on the term connector to ground, it works when I hit the starter button but cuts off the second I let go of the starter button
Ref page 39: Indicates voltage from CM is getting to fuel pump over wire 14 when switch is depressed and when released the voltage from CR1 pin 7 (wire 14) is not being applied to the fuel pump.

At work lunch break - meeting - later
Dave
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