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Old 03-06-2016, 08:55 PM   #3991
cwk
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Good evening? I couldn't wait until the AM.

OK, this is a bit long, but I don't know how to shorten it.

My wife and I went for our test drive in the Winnebago diesel pusher. Both of us had a chance to drive. It handled pretty well for both of us. We spent a little bit of time in the coach after we threw the sales guy out. Actually, he has been quite helpful, left us with the generator and AC's running, and went back into the offices. This gave us some time alone, to climb in the bathroom and shower, try the bed, and look for storage.

Then we went inside to talk numbers. Sales guy told us the asking price, then lowered it when I didn't respond with a counter offer. In the process of discussing pricing, depreciation, etc. I asked if there were any gas models that were similar in layout, lower in price, etc. that he had on the lot.

We then looked at, and drove, a 2006 Gulfstream Independence 8357. It is 5' shorter than the Winnebago, has a queen bed (really wanted a king), has less storage in and under, but the asking price was 40K. (The Winnebago asking price was 110K.) After a bit of discussion, and some time in the second rig alone, my wife and I decided that this would probably meet our needs and be more helpful to our overall budget at this point in time.

We went inside again and talked numbers again. Since I had not had time to do any research on this model, I told him I needed the time to do so. He then dropped the price by 5K. I told him again and that we were ready to leave. He then brought in his manager (he's required to do so). His manager told us how he was there to "help us," asked us a few basic questions, to which we gave a few generic answers, and proceeded to tell us all about how HIS family loved the rig his parents bought so they could visit their grandkids (his kids), and he rambled on and on and on. When he finally stopped he looked at us and expected us to chime in on how we would love to use this to visit our kids and granddaughter, etc., etc. Instead I looked at him and told him he had just said a whole bunch of stuff, but really didn't say anything. My wife said he looked lost. I usually don't do this, but he was really annoying me by just blabbering about how great his family was. He was trying to play the emotional game, but didn't have a clue about what we really wanted. My wife and I had a good laugh about it on the drive home.

The mgr. then started the pricing conversation with their original asking price, and decided he could lower it. I almost laughed at him when he came up with a price that was slightly higher than the sales guy's offer. When I told him so, he said something about he could run the numbers on his computer, then looked at the salesman who quickly picked up a calculator, punched some buttons, and told him his price. Manager, of course, now had to agree. If it hadn't been a waste of time and I try not to be rude or condescending to anyone, it probably would have been fun playing with the mgr.

The sales manager also wanted us to use them for financing, insurance, etc., etc. Greedy little sucker!

The manager finally left after saying that all he wanted to do was to stop by and meet us. (If you believe that, I have a bridge over some swampland that I can sell you; both the bridge AND the swamp land!) I then told the sales guy that I knew it was the obligatory sales manager meeting. He grimaced and just said he was doing his job. He wasn't any happier about the wasted time than we were. But, I know that it's part of the negotiating game. The manager should know that when he is dealing with folks a generation older than him that we've been through this before and know how the game is played.

Anyway, we left without making an offer knowing (sales guy told us) that this rig had been on the lot for a few months and the boss wants it sold. This gives us a few days to research and think about it before we get back to him. If it is sold before we get back there, we keep looking. It isn't the perfect rig, but it would meet our short term needs (not wants).

Lynne,

Beverly and I already started taking notes about the issues with the Gulfstream. I think I surprised the sales guy when I got on the ground and rolled under the rig looking for rust, oil leaks, etc. I guess he felt guilty about not knowing what the tire dates were when I asked, because a few minutes later I hear him calling out "2313" from under the back of the rig. He was now under the rig reading tire dates! I also climbed up the ladder to get a quick look at the fiberglass roof. I noticed that caulking would be needed soon, there are no covers over the vents (I am thinking of adding them), one skylight, one antenna, and two roof AC units. Again, sales guy was a bit surprised that I quickly climbed up so fast to check it out. Hey, I really want to know what needs to be done.

Thanks for the note to get in writing that ALL ITEMS must be operational. The sales guy did say that delivery included a 2 hour time slot with a technician to show us everything about the rig and answer questions.

Now, Beverly and I are going to take a day or more to research, run the numbers, and decide what to do.

Frank,

Next weekend is out. I just found out that the memorial service for my late friend is next Sunday in NC (about 7 hours drive one-way). So, we will be gone Saturday and Sunday. I don't know our schedule past then, but will keep in touch.

Everyone:

Thanks for the advice.

STEERING QUESTION:

I do have a handling question. The gas rig handled differently than the DP, of course. One of the things that I noticed was the difference in tires. The DP had 22" tires. The gas rig had 19.5" tires. The gas rig seemed to have some play in the front end. The steering wheel seemed a bit sloppy at times. The rig has about 45K miles. The tires are three years old, so there would be less mileage on the tires. The sales guy said it was the difference in types of suspension. But, I think that the gas rig should have handled better than it did. I've driven a number of larger rigs (including fire engines, fire trucks, school buses, etc.) over the years and did not have this issue. I still think the suspension is loose. But then, I was curious about the cost of replacement tires for future maintenance budgeting...

Doing a Google search, I ran across several threads about the difference in RV tires vs. truck tires of the same size. Also, different brand tires handled much differently. The brand name, if I read it right, was Sumitomo. I never heard of them before. Since the tires are halfway through their 6-year lifetime, I am wondering if they should be changed to a better handling tire. Others have said that changing the tires removed all of the poor steering performance. Since I am new to coaches, I simply don't know the answer. Any ideas?
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Old 03-06-2016, 10:32 PM   #3992
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Charles;
I do not know a lot about gas rigs but I suspect that one of the issues in the handling will be the longer overhang of the gas rig. The longer overhang on the gas will be more susceptible to cross winds and large trucks passing.

1. The bow wave on a truck will push the back end to the right causing the rig to want to veer to the left so you have to correct to the right.
2. As the truck moves up the bow wave goes to neutral at the drive axle but the vacuum from the truck pulls the rear end to the left causing the correction you just made to the right to be exaggerated so you have to correct to the left.
3. Then the truck moves up and the bow wave pushes the front of the rig to the right making you correct more to the left.
4. As the truck moves in front of the rig the bow wave goes away and the front enters the vacuum and pulls the front to the left. Since you have already corrected to the left you are being sucked to the left by the vacuum and have to correct to the right.

I do not think the effect is as great on a DP because the DP is heavier, does not have as long a rear overhang, and has a longer wheelbase. A tag axle make the effect even less.

At least that is how I see it happening. I have been sucked into the vacuum of a big rig occasionally while riding the motorcycle.

The DP will also be on air suspension while the gas is on springs. I already mentioned the longer wheelbase.

Newer units will generally have a better front end, possibly IFS (independent front suspension) and a greater degree of wheel cut. Some cuts go as high as 60 degrees which makes cornering and parking easier than comparable older units with smaller cuts of 50 or 55 degrees. A lower cut is not a deal breaker as you still will be able to work your way into most parking spots.

There will likely be more engine noise with gas than the diesel pusher but if you are not traveling really fast there should be little difference overall. Climbing hills will be noisier because the transmission will shift down and the engine will rev. Neither will have engine noise or handling issues when you are parked.

IMO the larger tires are a benefit. They should ride better. Handling should also be better but if both rigs are properly set up the tires should have little effect.

For me the big issue is the floor plan. If both of you like the layout you are golden. IMO more people change rigs because they are unhappy with the floor plan than with the chassis.

Good luck in the search. Looking for pictures no matter what decision you make. We like lots of photos please. Looking forward to seeing the big smiles when you drive into the campground.
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Old 03-07-2016, 02:10 AM   #3993
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Good Morning Everyone! Just getting to the coffee today, as I had re-hab this morning early!
Charles, you have gotten some sound advice so far, but I would suggest to keep looking at other brands, so far you have looked at a Winni, and a Gulfstream, both at the different ends of the spectrum! In the gas coaches, you have Ford chassis, and Workhorse chassis (GM). Both make a good chassis! The wandering you felt in the GS would be enough to make me walk away! If you were uncomfortable during the test drive, just imagine driving that way for 5 to 8 hours a day like that! Their are a lot of other brands you need to look at and see and drive before you make a decision. What a lot of people say on this site is to buy your second MH first, and I think that is sound advise! You are talking about maybe retiring and going full time, so you will need a MH that will be comfortable to drive, and comfortable to live in after the drive is done for the day! You need to do your research online, and decide which MH's you two like as far as the floor plan goes, when you pick a floor plan, then see which manufacture has it! Most all have the same to some extent! As you found out, the dealers will deal with you, and you can also research them, and find out which one get the best review's! I would suggest after you pick a list of MH's that meet your spec.'s to go to rvtrader.com and rvt.com and set your search criteria and see what you can find. Do not limit yourself to a specific area, and look all over the country. See what the prices are, how the dealers rate, and go from there! Do not be afraid to travel to the MH and the dealer that meets all of spec's! You live in Florida, so a lot of MH's in your area of the country! Also, Arizona and Texas will show up with the most MH's for sale! Enjoy the hunt, and after awhile you will you will know what you are looking for, and when you find it, you will know! I would suggest looking at Country Couch, Newmar, Monaco, Tiffin, Winnebago, Gulfstream, Fleetwood.
I just spent 9/10 months looking, but I knew my price range (under 25,000), type (DP), and what spec.'s I wanted! I wanted a diesel generator, not a propane/gas one, and kept looking till the right one came along! I also knew what brands I would consider also! I was looking for a touring couch, so slideouts weren't a big thing, which helped me in finding one at a great price!
Lloyd, glad you had fun riding and you trip went well!
Gordon, hoping you get the snow! Did I just say that?
Everyone have a great day! Rail!
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Old 03-07-2016, 07:46 AM   #3994
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Morning,
Currently 56
High 65 BRRRRR
Coffee is really tasty,
Not sure why I always end up under Rail but I don't mind he seems like a awful nice guy...
I paid 4500.00 for my jalopy everything works. I spent more time waxing than repairing. No slides, nothing fancy but she runs like a dream. Have you though about a older rig? I get complements all the time not sure I'd get them with a new rig.
I put on a set of Hankooks(sp) and love them 19.5. I have a set on my 64 caddie also but in a different size of course. No problems.
It does have the steering problems but with time and funs I get it repaired, after my knuckle's turn back to normal color... LOL
I'll agree that AZ has lots and lots of RV's for sale, I see tv adds all day long.
Anyhoo welcome to the coffee clutch.(I think that's what this is) LOL

Man0Man did we get a dust storm yesterday the flags were flying straight out almost the whole day along with the sand. I tried too keep my Patio rug clean and was told by a friendly neighbor to give up. Which I did. I wish I would have thought about closing the MH windows, man dust all over the place. It will be a clean up day. Its kind of cool you put the pile of leaves and debris at the curb and before you know it its gone...

Beamisl, bring a good shovel and a rake.

I still prefer this to the "Other" Place by 100% .
I can go jump in the pool after the clean up is over.

Joe took a shower at the shower house and loved all the hot water, I guess 5 gallons isn't enough in the MH.. Owell life goes on.

Gordon Glad to hear from you I was wondering if you broke something. I'm keeping an eye on your rig. Lots of dust on her, I see a wash in her future.

The furnace has kicked on twice now so I need to go shut it off.

Happy Monday, Gee's I used to hate hearing that when I was working.
Those on the road be safe.
Tim,
ps Rail that is the way I went. I should have stopped at the Casino,
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Old 03-07-2016, 07:50 AM   #3995
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Good morning, all. Was 45F here this morning. Forecast high is 75F. Not a coffee drinker, but enjoyed some thick bacon slices for breakfast today. Yum!

Lynne, prayers for your friends.

Gordon, Thank you for the explanations. I now have a better understanding of what we experienced yesterday.

Rail, Thanks for the pointer to rvt.com. We had already been looking at rvtrader. I had told my wife that we might need to travel a bit to find what we want/need. At first, I don't think she believed me. I think that is changing. You mentioned that you had a 25K limit on a "touring coach" for you. That would be a rig with no slides. I am wondering what a budget should be for a used, diesel, with a couple of slides for full-timing. Older does not bother me as long as it is clean (no mold, animal, or other smells) and is functioning properly. I am concerned a bit that our local campground has said there is a 15 year limit on age. I am pretty good at DIY projects and have some basic mechanical skills and experience, but no diesel experience.


After actually driving two different types of rigs yesterday, and carefully reading everyone's advice, I feel much more confident in my decision to say that neither of the two rigs we drove meet our needs. The search continues, and with a better understanding of what is important.

That gas coach layout almost seemed to work, while we were there. But, it was a case of me saying to myself, "can we make this work?" It needs to be "will this coach layout give us what we need AND be comfortable for full-timing?" And, the ride down the road... I do want to take this cross-country in the years ahead. Before I got married, I drove from coast to coast in my VW bug, and loved it. I miss that. Both of us travel around the state of FL for our jobs, and up to NC to visit family quite often. We love to drive. We have traveled around the country a bit by plane, then rental cars and hotels. I want to do more traveling when we retire, and that gas rig simply would not be suitable.

We are also getting a better understanding of interior layouts. That is coming with the experience of getting inside more coaches and spending more time thinking about how we are going to use it. At first, "they all looked the same" to us. But, wow! We are learning. We have also learned to take a tape measure. For example, we want a king bed. That is what we have in our house. But, we have found that there are several different size kings. A residential king (in a S&B) is 76x80. An RV King is 72x80. But, we have also seen an RV King that is about 72x76. Those few inches may seem trivial, but it is part of getting the right "layout" for us. Thanks, guys, for the reminders. We're getting it.

Thanks again to all for all of the advice. I truly, truly appreciate everyone's time for sharing their thoughts. My wife and I are carefully reading all of this.

Well, after spending over 2 days on the coach hunt, I need to go back to work pronto. I had planned on getting two days of work done this weekend; didn't happen. Now I need to play catch-up so I can build and deliver a client's project next week. It will take me about 2 weeks to build it, and we have a 2-day trip to NC and back for a memorial service next weekend, so I need to get going!

Drat! I was trying to keep this short, but that didn't work again.

Have a great day!
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Old 03-07-2016, 08:21 AM   #3996
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cwk
Don't forget diesel is more fuel wise and repairs are higher (so I have been told)
Just another FYI,
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Old 03-07-2016, 08:22 AM   #3997
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Goooodmorning all yíall!!!

The suns coming out, I need to be sure and get outside this morning while itís sunny, rainís headed my way! Oh my!!!

I cleaned up the interior of my Caravan and found my National Parks Pass, Iíd stashed it in the glovebox! I felt foolish but at least I found it. BTW this wasnít a senior moment issue, more like an ADD issue that Iíve dealt with all my life! I also tidied up and vacuumed my home-on-wheels. I wish I was a better housekeeper, I do like it better when itís all tidied up.

Iíve been following Charles RV search and have a comment to make about the steering issues on the 2006 RV. I have a 1994 Class A with an F53 chassis. From what I understand Ford used the same sway bar bushings that mine had up until 2013. Those older sway bar bushings are crap and literally turn to goo over time. Yes, goo! When I replaced my rear sway bar bushings I scrapped off the old bushings with a putty knife. I installed new blue nylon bushings that I purchased on eBay. The results were all Iíd hoped for, no more push/pull from passing semiís, even on I-10 in west Texas where the speed limit was 85mph. Overall my old RV drove so well I constantly found myself going faster than I wanted to go. If you look at that 2006 again, be sure to inspect the rear sway bar bushings.

BTW Charles, I enjoyed the account you gave of the sales situation. One strategy that works well is to counter with a ridiculously low offer. Then ask, ďWell if thatís not enough, whatís the least youíll take?Ē Then when you get that number, see if theyíll split the difference between it and your earlier ridiculously low offer. Like I said yesterday, if you donít ask you donít get! Also, as you found out, salesman love to wear you down by wasting your time. When one salesman gets tired another takes over, the police employ the same strategy when interrogating a suspect! Itís all part of the game. I find that when I think of it as a game, the process is a lot more enjoyable, even fun.

Thatís it from the land of sunny days, starry starry nights, and ZZ Top wannabeís.

Steve
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Old 03-07-2016, 01:48 PM   #3998
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Tim
You'll notice almost all of Rail's posts here are in the early AM.....
A bunch of time zones away!He's up while our world sleeps.
Wait till he comes back after Mona , He won't have post lag + WE won't have jet lag !

Now , RAIL........
No wishing for snow allowed!!!
Your aim is skewed by the curvature of the earth or something.....
You missed the mark , it's snowing here !
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Old 03-07-2016, 03:18 PM   #3999
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Good Afternoon Gang, coffee was good this morning, a little chilly, but it is sunny and near 80 right now.
Charles,
Like I said, anytime before the 25th of April. Also with due diligence Craigs list has a lot of possible MH's. As Rail said, you have to list your wants and must haves, then you can start looking and choosing. The price set, you can go 5 to 10,000 above what you want to spend, that leaves room for negotiations. Also don't be afraid to look at private owners and not just dealers.
Have a great day all,
Frank
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Old 03-07-2016, 05:23 PM   #4000
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Old 03-07-2016, 06:34 PM   #4001
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Good Evening Gang,

IT WAS 59 WHEN I LEFT W--K TODAY! LOVING IT!

Charles and Beverly. You tell Beverly I am so DARN PROUD of her for driving the MH. I drive ours and a lot of women won't even attempt it. It is so important for the female to also drive because if something happens to the guy then she can "come to the rescue". Also, if 2 people drive then you can relieve each other and drive farther in a day when necessary.

OK, here is our story. 18 months ago I started looking for info about RV's. Patient suggested I come here. I learned a lot. Very helpful people. We talked about a DP or a gasser. DP oil change is about 3 times that of a gasser. All other repairs are higher and my DH didn't know anything about diesel engines. Gas he could fix certain things himself. We knew we didn't want anything over 36 feet. One or maybe two slides only. No corner sink (my absolute) and I wanted the bed not sideways but walk into the bdrm and go to either side to get into it. Peculiar but what I had to have.

I had up to $47,000 to spend to pay cash. Did not want payments. Winnebago floors plans kept coming up and I kept finding rigs I liked. Put a bid on one and changed my mind. Boy am I glad I did. The one we bought kept coming up at PPL in Texas. I couldn't figure out why it was so much lower than rigs here that were comparable.

We bought that rig, The lady did not know what she had. Electrical problems turned out to be blown fuses. Levelers not working turned out to be transmission fluid mostly. Badly de-oxidized so I spent this past summer de-oxidizing it and waxing. Looks brand new. Get a lot of compliments on it.

I spent $25,000. Rest of the money is in the bank still. That money gives me options, for fixes, upgrades, vacations, lot rent, whatever we want to use it for. I will replace the TV and Radio this Spring, get the levelers looked at, replace a window, but mostly it will be as we bought. When we have used it we are pleased with the floor plan and how things work. Works for us. That is what is important, what works for the two of you.

I would drive this MH anywhere. The PO had some "monster sway bars" put on it and it handles very well. If the floor plan works, other things can be changed or upgraded. Keep looking, you will find it. Sounds like the two of you are learning rapidly and coming here was your first smart decision.

This past summer we did not use even half of the storage space on our 2004 Winnebago Itasca Sunova 33L. It will work well for fulltime if we decided to do that. We will be out of MI in the winters at the very least. Remember, towing a toad will also give you storage area. The vehicle has space too.

Keep looking, take your time and relax. Learn what you can about using the rig while looking for the rig. YouTube has all sorts of "how to" videos about RVs. Tell Beverly I would like to talk on PM if she has other questions.

Score: Salesman o / Charles and Beverly 2
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Old 03-08-2016, 06:35 AM   #4002
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Old 03-08-2016, 07:14 AM   #4003
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What happened Tim? Did the post ghost get you again?

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Old 03-08-2016, 09:26 AM   #4004
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Good Morning Gang,
Coffee was good this morning, weather even better, sunshine, warmer witth a little breeze.
Evidently the good weather up north has everyone out doing things and not on here.
Have a wonderful day all,
Frank
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