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Old 04-11-2016, 08:55 PM   #4299
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Charles,
Yes by the end of the week, thats about all that will be left. They still have units coming in for a couple days at a time, but the snow birds are packing up and heading north.
Frank
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Old 04-12-2016, 01:31 AM   #4300
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Good Morning Everyone! Coffee was very good today!
Steve, I think you could leave the doors open for a day or two, and the smell will be all gone! After all it is Az. and that dry weather should suck all the smell out by the time you get ready to go!
Frank, sounds like I will be able to get a premium spot!
Glad Tim and Joe got home safe! And had no froze pipes!
Hope Lynne has a safe trip back home!
Charles, they started your building yet?
Everyone have a great day! 2 days till we leave! Rail!
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Old 04-12-2016, 06:46 AM   #4301
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Good morning, all!

Rail, I pulled the trigger and wrote the first check yesterday. I still have some paperwork to get done (permits, final diagrams), but the process and clock has started. Hopefully we will make our deadline as I need to have my stuff out of its current location in less than 60 days.

One concern that I am now second-guessing myself about is: INSULATION. To keep the initial outlay of funds to a minimum, the plan is for me to add insulation myself later this summer. I have been searching online for different methods to use.

The most expensive is spray foam. In fact, closed cell foam is the highest, but it forms its own vapor barrier as well as insulates. But, the Return On Investment for my 5-year time period may not be so great. And, the initial outlay is more than my budget for this year. And, the budget for the next 4 years is zero except for basic maintenance.

Fiberglass batts would be a challenge since the vertical uprights are on 5' centers. Also, styrofoam (or any kind) of rigid panels would need to be cut to fit because of the 5' centers. 4' on center verticals would have added another $500 to the price. That is not in the budget. Oh, well.

But, the one thing that I keep seeing the metal building companies talk about is installing a RADIANT BARRIER just under the metal siding DURING construction. My building company/contractor did not even mention this. Evidently it is not something they do. This is a 1/4" barrier that is temporarily taped to the framing, to hold it in place for a few minutes, then covered by the metal siding.

When I did ask about installing insulation during the construction phase, they said that I may be able to get the install crew to install my insulation for a side cash deal if they had time.

Am I making a mistake if I don't add the radiant barrier during construction? This is supposed to keep the heat (think hot Florida sun) from being transmitted from the siding to the interior of the building and even to the vertical steel framing. I hope not!

I do need to make a decision on how to insulate this building. The neighbor next door, who has a metal-sided pole building with a concrete floor, says he wished he had insulation. When the weather changes from cold to hot (or hot to cold?) overnight, he gets condensation on the interior walls. I cannot have that happening with my equipment and wood materials. I just don't believe all of the hype that I am reading on the insulation vendors' websites. They all say that their product is the best, of course. ANY IDEAS?


Lynne, Safe travels today if you are on schedule and heading home.

Everyone, Have a great day!
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Old 04-12-2016, 07:06 AM   #4302
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Charles,
I think that I would have the radiant barrier installed while they are putting thee bulding up, then you have time to decied what insulation you want to use. Just my opinion.
Frank
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Old 04-12-2016, 07:13 AM   #4303
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Charles, absolutely have the barrier insulation put in, you don't get the huge swings of temp changes there that we get here in the north but I can tell you that steel will sweat and it'll look like it rained inside if the temps really swing.
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Old 04-12-2016, 07:39 AM   #4304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harley1994 View Post
Charles, absolutely have the barrier insulation put in, you don't get the huge swings of temp changes there that we get here in the north but I can tell you that steel will sweat and it'll look like it rained inside if the temps really swing.
Terry,

Well, actually we do get some wild swings. In our "winter months" we can scrape ice off the windshields in the morning, and will need to run the air conditioning in our cars in the afternoon.

If I cannot get the crew to install the radiant barrier under the siding during install, will installing it on the interior of the siding once the building is up work almost as well? The only spots not covered will be where the siding touches the frame. So, maybe only the frame members will sweat? I may be able to cover them by wrapping the barrier around the frame as well?

Or, after the building is complete, can I remove the siding screws one section at a time, shove the 1/4" radiant barrier in, then reattach? Maybe I may need to use new screws if there is some type of collapsible washer on the screw head (to make them weatherproof)?

I am feeling really dumb now.

Frank and Terry, Thanks for the advice!
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Old 04-12-2016, 07:52 AM   #4305
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Charles, I never thought about that I would think, (I'm just guessing here) that as long as you have a separation between the interior and exterior, (with some form of barrier) that you would be okay. The heat (or cold) will transfer to the metal studs from the siding so I would think that you will get moisture from the studs, wrapping them should be okay because your insulating them from the inside temps. where you get the moisture from is when its warm inside and cold outside
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Old 04-12-2016, 08:19 AM   #4306
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Terry,

One of the things that will be in my favor is that the building will be "conditioned" year round. That is, heat in the winter (short as it is), A/C in the summer, and dehumidifier(s) running year round to keep the relative humidity as low as possible. For north FL, I am very lucky to get around 50% RH most of the time. But, that works well for me. So, that will limit the condensation on any exposed metal, but not eliminate it, of course.

What I guess I fear the most is the metal roofing and framing on the overhead sweating and dripping onto equipment and wood! So, I will need to a) seal the building (air leaks at the ridge line, top of the walls, etc.), b) add a radiant barrier, c) figure out what type of insulation to add over the radiant barrier, and d), get the dehumidifiers and A/C unit running ASAP.

Maybe a) and b) need to change order of installation? That should become obvious when I get started.

But, the primary goal now is to get this completed on schedule. Otherwise, I will need to move everything into rented storage until the building is complete. Since I cannot move the larger equipment by myself, that means paying someone twice to move everything instead of just once and paying for temporary storage space.


Thanks! I'm still feeling dumb, but it is turning more into ignorant (just don't know enough yet), and, with everyone's help, I will get this to work adequately.
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Old 04-12-2016, 08:37 AM   #4307
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Goooodmorning all y’all!!!

It’s a beautiful cool partly cloudy morning and my coffee’s delicious. What a great morning for a hike!

Charles, having lived in Houston TX for many years I can tell you from my past experience that metal buildings will sweat terribly in a humid climate. Maybe it’s time to have the job rebid and get a contractor who’ll build it correctly to begin with. FWIW as far as I’m concerned spray-on insulation is the way to go. It’s how they used to insulate Avion TT’s. It not only provides excellent insulation but a great deal of compressional strength as well. You might want to look at future AC savings with spray-on insulation, it’s that good!

My Alaska trip continues to look good, God keeps smiling on me. On Sunday I was disappointed when my car heater still blew cold air, even after I’d back-flushed it. I almost ordered a new heater core Sunday evening but something held me back. Then, yesterday morning on my way to the store to buy milk I noticed that the heater had perked up a little teeny tiny bit. With that small glimmer of hope, when I got home I reflushed the heater and a whole new bunch of crud poured out! My heater’s working great again, WOOOHOOO!!! It’s a small thing but great trip karma. I just love it when my plans keep coming together.

Time to wrap it up and put on my hiking shoes.

Steve
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Old 04-12-2016, 09:56 AM   #4308
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Good Morning;
Charles; Adding a 1/4 inch of insulation will likely give you a R factor of 2 or 3. Not much but it will help. I do not know a lot about metal construction but from my standpoint metal is the toughest thing to insulate. IMO wood is a much better material to work with and already has a natural insulation factor.

I think this is one of those "you are going to pay me now or pay me later" scenarios. If you need a tight, low humidity structure you have to seal out the source of moisture. Since it appears that the moisture is outside a great seal on the building is necessary. That along with the dehumidifiers might be sufficient to achieve your goal. I would talk with a ventilation specialist to determine the best course of action given the circumstances.

I realize you are under some time constraints but I suggest you rethink your plans. I believe doing it correctly for your requirements from the gate may save you lots of headaches (and costs) down the road.

I have a 36 x 72 shed that is covered in metal (roof and siding). You do not want to remove the siding after and try to add insulation!!! Considering the value of your equipment and product I would lean towards spray on insulation.

Steve - I agree with Rail on the degassing of the wood. It will dry out quickly in the heat as well as I would drive with the windows partly down for the first few days on the road. Getting in and out of the vehicle, etc while you are traveling will also ventilate your rig.

Everyone have a great day.
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Old 04-12-2016, 10:33 AM   #4309
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Gordon and all,

I used to own a 5600 sf commercial metal building. I never gave the construction of it much thought. The original siding had white vinyl covered fiberglass that was installed as the building was constructed. That is, it was between the frame and the siding. We ran A/C in the summer, heat in the winter, and had a couple of dehumidifiers for the in-between seasons. We never had a sweating problem. We did have a rusting issue on the equipment during the in-between seasons, but the dehumidifiers resolved that. The building was not that air-tight, especially around the 4 overhead doors.

One thing that I need to keep in mind is the ROI for this building. We negotiated a 5-year lease on the property with permission to erect this building. When we leave, the building stays as part of the deal. Unless I start going crazy with expensive improvements, the ROI is very favorable for what we are doing. At the end of 5 years the plan is for me to retire. (Wow!) We may be able to stay at this location longer, if we want, but that is not in the budgeted plan. So, looking for any payback past 5 years would be a loss at the 5 year mark.

To keep things on schedule, I am leaning toward leaving things alone for right now, moving in, and learning how the building reacts. Meanwhile, I will keep trying to learn and see if I want to change that plan. I do have about 6 weeks before actual construction of the building. The slab will get poured in a couple of weeks, after engineering, permitting, and site clearing. Then, the slab needs to cure for 3-4 weeks? The actual construction should take 1-2 days. A couple of days for the electrician and installation of an insulated overhead door (different supplier), then move in!
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Old 04-12-2016, 11:28 AM   #4310
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One more note on the building insulation topic:

I want/need sound insulation. I do not want to annoy any of the neighbors. The building will not be close to any others, but I want to keep the outside environment quiet, as well as limit echoing inside. That means the hard-surfaced metal siding needs to be covered with something that absorbs the sound somehow.
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Old 04-12-2016, 02:19 PM   #4311
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0n my building (I stick built with metal roof and siding) I realized later I messed up. I did all the labor myself, with some help from family and friends.

I used trusses 24 on center, then decided purlins were the way to go. This was a few hundred dollars cheaper than osb sheathing. Well if you use a sheathing, then some sorta vapor barrier (like tar paper) you are good to go. However with purlins, I had to but these large rolls of insulation vapor barrier (about 1 " think, sheathed in a plastic like vinyl). Well after we rolled it out all over the roof,, it made it real interesting walking up there as you could not see the purlins or trusses to lay down the tin. It was only 23' down!!

I agree, insulate now, and do as good a job as you can. You will not regret it when the weather works against you the insulation makes a huge difference.

One other point, around here I can not buy the insulation as cheap as the contractors will provide it and install it! Proved true in my barn, and my house. They are very fast, in and out in my 42x50 barn, with interior walls and all insulated, foam in the cracks etc... all sealed in 4 hours!

L.
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Old 04-12-2016, 07:40 PM   #4312
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Good Evening All,

Drove home from WV today. Niece is still pretty devastated. Her sister came in from LA today to stay with her for a bit. She will adjust in time but boy, this was a hard one. Glad to be home but am very tired.

Have a good evening, Lynne

Rail, almost there, still excited for you and the ladies. Please post pictures when you can.
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