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Oldvet · 09-09-2009, 02:03 PM

Bought an 85 Winny Chieftain 31 foot with a 454 and have been trying to get it ready for a trip south for the winter. Engine has 55,000 miles on it, i`ve replaced the clutch fan which was bad and put a new thermostat in it. Also flushed the rad and am running a 50/50 mix. Checked timing and it is set at 5 degrees BTDC and mechanical. advance is free and vac advance is working.
I installed a aftermarket temp gage and the engine runs between 210-230 on the road at 75 humid degrees outside at 55-60 mph.
At idle it will warm to 235 but if i raise the rpm so the fan kicks in it will drop to about 225.
The clutch fan seems to be doing its job but i`m concerned about climbing hills and warmer outside temps.
I`ve read that my rigs temps are normal but would appreciate your opinions.
Thanks.

JimElliott · 09-09-2009, 02:39 PM

Oldvet..Checked timing and it is set at 5 degrees BTDC and mechanical. advance is free and vac advance is working.

What is the total advance (Base & mechanical) at 3,000 RPM?
With 75º outside temps my 454 runs at 185º and at 115º it runs at 190º...
In the vast frozen wasteland in the north it seems wise to run a 50-50 mixture so I think you have boiled it down to the thermostat or radiator, I run the "Stewart 180º stat with the "Pre-drilled" bypass for cold startups....
Radiator in your 86 is very suspect at the age it's at plus the fact in could be like my old one (83) with 4 rows BUT only had 3/8 tubes....The old core has been tossed for another 4 row but with 1/2 inch tubes....Summertime ready in the heat...

Jim

Oldvet · 09-09-2009, 03:08 PM

New 180 thermostat.
Not sure what total advance would be, wouldn`t that be a known if set at factory 4 degrees fixed timing ?
Water pump isn`t suspect because I get hot air in the bed room heater and dash heater.
Dang I hate to have to pull that radiator.

Also where`s your temp sensor located, i`ve wondered if high readings are caused from sensor being between exhast ports in head.

JimElliott · 09-09-2009, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oldvet

New 180 thermostat.
Not sure what total advance would be, wouldn`t that be a known if set at factory 4 degrees fixed timing ?
Water pump isn`t suspect because I get hot air in the bed room heater and dash heater.
Dang I hate to have to pull that radiator.

Also where`s your temp sensor located, i`ve wondered if high readings are caused from sensor being between exhast ports in head.

Stock from the factory with a 4º base advance I have NEVER seen a distributer hand out more than 16º which at 3,000 RPM equals 20º advance which is BAD.
There is another thread on the vintage section which is getting into details about ignition timing....
Most of the temp sensors are located in the head between cylinders 1 & 3 and yes I do find the temps rise 10º-15º over the intake manifold location.
I drilled and tapped the thermostat housing and installed a electronic water temp....Found the dash gauge is pretty close with the center hash mark being 210º and the engine driven fan kicks in big time....
I didn't say you had to pull the radiator...All was said is it's suspect, The air slipped around the sides of my radiator (3 inches on the drivers side and 4 inches on the passenger side top to bottom)...Get the air loss corrected and all of the air will flow through the rad...
If you can relocate everything that interferes with the airflow that will help also.
My 87 "Whinny" has/had a hugh air space at the bottom front portion of the radiator which I plugged up with a sheet of aluminum so every bit of air possible went through the radiator without any hindrance or loss....
I would also flush out the radiator fins from the back to the front cuz gremlins like to hide between the radiator and the A.C. condensor...

Jim

Oldvet · 09-09-2009, 03:54 PM

Thanks and wasn`t trying to be a smarty about the timing was just ignorant about it.
My clutch fan doesn`t engage until 215, so it has to heat up till that temp doesn`t it at idle.
As far as the air dam, i`ve been wondering about that, looks like someone cut most of the fiberglass dam out. I could look down clear to the ground from the hood opening. The sides were somewhat there but had a four inch opening on passengers side of rad.
I made a aluminum plate for the bottom and plugged up the passenger side and that lowered the temp about ten degrees on hwy. The top above the rad is wide open into the dog house, wasn`t sure if that was originally closed off or not, please advise.
When the factory dash gage was hooked up it ran just past center.

Also do ya know the name of that thread about the timing, thanks.
Lenn

JimElliott · 09-09-2009, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oldvet

Thanks and wasn`t trying to be a smarty about the timing was just ignorant about it.
My clutch fan doesn`t engage until 215, so it has to heat up till that temp doesn`t it at idle.
As far as the air dam, i`ve been wondering about that, looks like someone cut most of the fiberglass dam out. I could look down clear to the ground from the hood opening. The sides were somewhat there but had a four inch opening on passengers side of rad.
I made a aluminum plate for the bottom and plugged up the passenger side and that lowered the temp about ten degrees on hwy. The top above the rad is wide open into the dog house, wasn`t sure if that was originally closed off or not, please advise.
When the factory dash gage was hooked up it ran just past center.

Timing those 454s can be a big pain without the proper internals whirling around the inside of the distributor and that's why I suggested looking at the other thread.
I placed a 2" or 3" blocking rubber on the top of the radiator area from side to side, Just adds more pressure through the radiator and NO that was the way the factory did it back in those daZe (empty space) which in turn started the legend of ALL the 454s ran hot...Not so IMHO.
Once you pave the way for a clean air flow and block up the air leaks to force the air through the radiator you will be one happy man....
Living here in the low desert there is no reason for the 50-50 antifreeze mixture so a 30% A.F. and 70% distilled water is in use cuz water disapates heat better, Memba the good old days when they place a sliding scale on the mixture solutions between anti freeze and water?
Those days are gone cuz they want to sell more A.F., However I never go below 25% A.F. since it does a good job on lubeing the water pump.

Jim
As you said plugging up the bottom and passenger side lowered the temps 10º so you are getting there

Oldvet · 09-09-2009, 04:25 PM

Thanks Jim, i`ll make a dam above the rad and bet that will help.
Is there a tool to test the anti-freeze mixture. When i flushed the rad the guy at the store where i bought the anti-freeze said there would be lots of water trapped in the block so advised putting first bottle in pure and rest a 50/50 mix so that`s what i did.
Soooo i reckon i could be too thick huh.

JimElliott · 09-09-2009, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oldvet

Thanks Jim, i`ll make a dam above the rad and bet that will help.
Is there a tool to test the anti-freeze mixture. When i flushed the rad the guy at the store where i bought the anti-freeze said there would be lots of water trapped in the block so advised putting first bottle in pure and rest a 50/50 mix so that`s what i did.
Soooo i reckon i could be too thick huh.

You reckon correctly on the A.F. being toooo thick...I would imagine you are in the 60 + % A.F. region which even in cool weather will make them run very hot.
What are your min/max temps in your area?
Also you mentioned the engine heats up the bedroom area, Any chance the engine also heats up your water heater? (mine does) and the water pump (stock) really hasta work hard getting the hot water to the rear.

Jim

RustyJC · 09-09-2009, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimElliott

Stock from the factory with a 4º base advance I have NEVER seen a distributer hand out more than 16º which at 3,000 RPM equals 20º advance which is BAD.

Since the distributor rotates at 1/2 engine speed (like the camshaft), 16 degrees advance in the distributor translates to 32 degrees advance at the crankshaft. Therefore, 4 degrees static advance plus 32 degrees centrifugal advance will show up as 36 degrees total advance measured at the crankshaft damper with a timing light.

Rusty

JimElliott · 09-09-2009, 04:52 PM

Rusty, All measurements are from the dampner....750 RPM is 4º stock and measured at 3,000 RPM I've yet seen anything past 20º and I have done a few over the years.

Jim

RustyJC · 09-09-2009, 05:23 PM

Take a look at this dyno test of a 540 cid Chevy HERE. Notice the note on the final dyno run -

Quote:

Same as above but total ignition advance increased from 38 to 42 degrees.

Take a look HERE as well. This text confirms the conversion from distributor to crankshaft degrees.

Rusty

Oldvet · 09-09-2009, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimElliott

You reckon correctly on the A.F. being toooo thick...I would imagine you are in the 60 + % A.F. region which even in cool weather will make them run very hot.
What are your min/max temps in your area?
Also you mentioned the engine heats up the bedroom area, Any chance the engine also heats up your water heater? (mine does) and the water pump (stock) really hasta work hard getting the hot water to the rear.

Jim

Right now 40`s at night 70`s in the day but we`ll be heading south to Texas the first week of Oct.
How can i test it to see where i`m at?
Yep those pipes to the back heat the bedroom and water, had it by passed once but figured the extra cooling in the little rad back there helped.

JimElliott · 09-09-2009, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RustyJC

Take a look at this dyno test of a 540 cid Chevy HERE. Notice the note on the final dyno run -

Take a look HERE as well. This text confirms the conversion from distributor to crankshaft degrees.

Rusty

The distributor shown is a F@rd and I do not work on those..Chebby HEIs only and yes I do know the crank shaft degrees.
Could not find the 540 test results.

Jim

Oldvet · 09-09-2009, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oldvet

Right now 40`s at night 70`s in the day but we`ll be heading south to Texas the first week of Oct.
How can i test it to see where i`m at?
Yep those pipes to the back heat the bedroom and water, had it by passed once but figured the extra cooling in the little rad back there helped.

Sheesh edit again, now ya know why i put old in my handle

Got above the rad all tinned in, turned out good. Have a little area back by the headlights that is open but will be hard to close in.
Maybe if i get the anti-freeze checked and what i`ve done it will be a big improvement.