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Old 04-26-2013, 12:11 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by gt350ed View Post
Thank you Dave. This information will be REALLY HELPFUL regarding the Battery Isolator Controller and how it functions and where each wire goes. It appears to be exactly like the one I have, including the referenced dash lights. I'm bringing the rig to the house tomorrow. I have a lot of voltmeter work to do thanks to you guys. I'm very appreciative.
This will be a good time to get a helper. Running around by yourself and turning on the key, checking your watch, measuring voltage, getting a beer, swearing, and staring over gets old in a hurry .... ask me how I know?
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Old 04-26-2013, 02:41 PM   #30
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There are many variations of battery control devices (as well as electrical setups). While I understand most of this stuff, I am not an actual RV tech. Takes a bit of research to locate things since I do not work with them day in a day out so sorry if I sometimes bounce around a bit. Just glad we were able to narrow in on what you have. Good luck.

Dave
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Old 04-27-2013, 04:21 PM   #31
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I wanted to report back as to SOME of what I learned today...

The text below reflects suggestions previously posted by "Tom". My responses are in BOLD...

The relay is normally open. When 12V is applied to the small terminal it closes the relay and connects the two large terminals. The object is to provide a boost or charge to whichever battery needs it. It is also used with the emergency start switch if you have one. The big question is where the power comes from to close the relay. That is the small terminal. Applying 12V to it should close it with a click. The relay may be controlled by a BIRD or IRD or just the boost switch.

With your voltmeter check the two large terminals. Unplug from shore power for now. You should have chassis reading on one side and coach on the other. I did this and you are correct.
This is assuming the relay is open. The small terminal should have no power on it. The small terminal had no power.

Next put 12V on the small terminal. The relay should close and the voltages will be the same on both batteries. When I jumped a wire from the hot side of the battery to the small terminal, it "clicked".

If so, you need to find out what is powering the small terminal and when. There are two (2) small wires going to the small terminal on the isolator relay, one orange, one dark blue. When the Aux Start button is pushed, I get voltage to the small terminal. Since there is a orange wire going to the small terminal AND a orange wire going to the Aux Start button, I'm presuming they are one in the same. I have traced the dark blue wire and it goes from the small terminal to the lowest wire plugging into the Battery Isolator Control (the black Intellitec box next to the Isolator Relay) My schematic for the black box does, in fact, show the dark blue wire as going to the Isolator Relay.

I did further tests. With the key on, with the engine and alternator running, and WITHOUT the key on or the engine running, but plugged into shore power. During all of this, the only time that the small terminal received power was when the Aux Start button was pushed.

So...here's what I'm concluding. Correct me if I'm wrong....
On my rig, the Isolator Relay is set up to be powered from two different places. One is when you press the Aux Start button so you can use coach batteries to start the rig if needed. The OTHER source of power is to come from the Intellitec Battery Isolator Relay Control
.

It appears that there is no power coming out of the "Control" to power the Isolator relay. Is the Intellitec "Control" the culprit?
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Old 04-27-2013, 05:04 PM   #32
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1. Make sure pin "To Starter Relay Coil" on the Intellitec Battery Isolator Controller is seeing greater than or equal to 13.3VDC chassis battery voltage when the engine is running.
2 Make sure the Intellitec Battery Isolator Controller is always seeing the coach battery voltage (To Coach Battery pin).
3. Make sure the Intellitec Battery Isolator Controller is seeing the chassis battery voltage when the ignition switch is in RUN (To Chassis Ignition pin).
4. Make sure you have a good ground on the ground pin of the Intellitec Battery Isolator Controller.

If all that is good, and it does not energize the relay within 12 seconds after the engine is started, then the controller is defective. Normally, the alternator will output 14.1 volts with engine running. Not sure which pin the controller is monitoring (starter solinoid or ignition switch) for 13.3VDC so make sure you have at least 13.3VDC on both pins. Anything lower and it will not trigger.

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Old 04-27-2013, 06:03 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gt350ed View Post
I wanted to report back as to SOME of what I learned today...

The text below reflects suggestions previously posted by "Tom". My responses are in BOLD...

The relay is normally open. When 12V is applied to the small terminal it closes the relay and connects the two large terminals. The object is to provide a boost or charge to whichever battery needs it. It is also used with the emergency start switch if you have one. The big question is where the power comes from to close the relay. That is the small terminal. Applying 12V to it should close it with a click. The relay may be controlled by a BIRD or IRD or just the boost switch.

With your voltmeter check the two large terminals. Unplug from shore power for now. You should have chassis reading on one side and coach on the other. I did this and you are correct.
This is assuming the relay is open. The small terminal should have no power on it. The small terminal had no power.

Next put 12V on the small terminal. The relay should close and the voltages will be the same on both batteries. When I jumped a wire from the hot side of the battery to the small terminal, it "clicked".

If so, you need to find out what is powering the small terminal and when. There are two (2) small wires going to the small terminal on the isolator relay, one orange, one dark blue. When the Aux Start button is pushed, I get voltage to the small terminal. Since there is a orange wire going to the small terminal AND a orange wire going to the Aux Start button, I'm presuming they are one in the same. I have traced the dark blue wire and it goes from the small terminal to the lowest wire plugging into the Battery Isolator Control (the black Intellitec box next to the Isolator Relay) My schematic for the black box does, in fact, show the dark blue wire as going to the Isolator Relay.

I did further tests. With the key on, with the engine and alternator running, and WITHOUT the key on or the engine running, but plugged into shore power. During all of this, the only time that the small terminal received power was when the Aux Start button was pushed.

So...here's what I'm concluding. Correct me if I'm wrong....
On my rig, the Isolator Relay is set up to be powered from two different places. One is when you press the Aux Start button so you can use coach batteries to start the rig if needed. The OTHER source of power is to come from the Intellitec Battery Isolator Relay Control
.

It appears that there is no power coming out of the "Control" to power the Isolator relay. Is the Intellitec "Control" the culprit?
On my BIRD there is an input from "Coach Bat" .... this line is +12vdc .... this line is the power line to the BIRD (the power source for the BIRD itself). On mine, it is fused at 5 amps. See if you can find a similar power line and fuse. The BIRD may have a blown fuse ... not unusual if the solenoid failed.
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Old 04-27-2013, 06:51 PM   #34
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Hi Ed
Before condemning the BIRD take a minute and check voltages at the BIRD. There is a diagram in this thread that shows you what should be on each terminal. The terminals are all inputs except the bulb circuits and the one that sends 12V to the isolator relay. So you should find an ignition input, coach battery input, and a ground wire. If not you need to fix that. Read up on the voltages and delay built into the system or plug into shore power and turn the headlights on to drop the chassis battery voltage. When it drops below a certain point the BIRD puts 12V to the "isolator relay" pin. Check it at the BIRD. Unlikely you have a broken wire to the relay, but not impossible. This may be fused. If you have all the inputs and not getting output when conditions are right, it is probably time to go BIRD shopping. Or install a switch on the dash and control it yourself.
You are close to the answer.

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Old 04-27-2013, 10:33 PM   #35
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1. Make sure pin "To Starter Relay Coil" on the Intellitec Battery Isolator Controller is seeing greater than or equal to 13.3VDC chassis battery voltage when the engine is running.
2 Make sure the Intellitec Battery Isolator Controller is always seeing the coach battery voltage (To Coach Battery pin).
3. Make sure the Intellitec Battery Isolator Controller is seeing the chassis battery voltage when the ignition switch is in RUN (To Chassis Ignition pin).
4. Make sure you have a good ground on the ground pin of the Intellitec Battery Isolator Controller.

If all that is good, and it does not energize the relay within 12 seconds after the engine is started, then the controller is defective. Normally, the alternator will output 14.1 volts with engine running. Not sure which pin the controller is monitoring (starter solinoid or ignition switch) for 13.3VDC so make sure you have at least 13.3VDC on both pins. Anything lower and it will not trigger.

Dave
You guys are good!! You Dave, and Tom and Bruce. I haven't solved the problem yet. But I'm betting I know the answer. The coach is back in storage and I'm going to be out of town and unable to work on it for several days at least. BUT...the third "pin" down on the controller is "To Coach Battery" I have nothing going to the Coach Battery. No wires except for the main cables (+ and -).

Back several weeks, I had another thread here. My issue was that I had a bunch of disconnected wires and I was "Trying to Find My Way Back". Ultimately, I connected all the wires to the hot side of the chassis battery. I'm betting that when I trace the "to Coach Battery" wire from the Controller, it will lead to a wire I have connected to the Chassis battery. Once I trace it, I'll let you guys know.
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Old 04-28-2013, 06:06 AM   #36
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You guys are good!! You Dave, and Tom and Bruce. I haven't solved the problem yet. But I'm betting I know the answer. The coach is back in storage and I'm going to be out of town and unable to work on it for several days at least. BUT...the third "pin" down on the controller is "To Coach Battery" I have nothing going to the Coach Battery. No wires except for the main cables (+ and -).

Back several weeks, I had another thread here. My issue was that I had a bunch of disconnected wires and I was "Trying to Find My Way Back". Ultimately, I connected all the wires to the hot side of the chassis battery. I'm betting that when I trace the "to Coach Battery" wire from the Controller, it will lead to a wire I have connected to the Chassis battery. Once I trace it, I'll let you guys know.
OOOOH !!!! .... sounds promising !!
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Old 04-28-2013, 06:52 AM   #37
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Now you are getting somewhere....
Did you check for coach voltage on that pin. It probably does not go back to the battery. It may just go over to the BIRD. You indicated that you had chassis and coach voltage on the BIRD. If that pin is dead, you found the problem. Jump it to the coach side of the BIRD (after making sure it isn't grounded). Did you find places for the extra wires ?
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Old 04-28-2013, 07:22 AM   #38
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Now you are getting somewhere....
Did you check for coach voltage on that pin. It probably does not go back to the battery. It may just go over to the BIRD. You indicated that you had chassis and coach voltage on the BIRD. If that pin is dead, you found the problem. Jump it to the coach side of the BIRD (after making sure it isn't grounded). Did you find places for the extra wires ?
Tom
BTW, on mine the path starting at the battery is:

Coach battery (or a post that eventually goes to the coach battery) --> Fuse --> BIRD input labeled "Coach".

On mine this is both the power for the BIRD and the voltage sense line for Coach battery voltage.
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Old 04-28-2013, 07:38 AM   #39
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BTW, on mine the path starting at the battery is:

Coach battery (or a post that eventually goes to the coach battery) --> Fuse --> BIRD input labeled "Coach".

On mine this is both the power for the BIRD and the voltage sense line for Coach battery voltage.
I wasn't sure if he actually checked for voltage at the pin or remembered his unhooked wires on the coach battery. On mine the coach wire on the BIRD goes back to where the battery ties in to the convertor. He must be tied in to the coach battery somewhere if he has coach voltage at the relay. I hope the wire is dead and hasn't been grounded. Then the fix will be easy.
BTW. Thanks for helping these folks. I can't imagine what it might cost to take these problems to a technician. Actually I can. I worked as GM in a HD truck shop for the last 6 years of my career. I reviewed all invoices before they were sent, and some were incredible.
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:40 PM   #40
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Okay...today I had a chance to do some more testing of wires, etc.
First, I need some clarification...
Is my Intellitec "Battery Isolator Control" (the black box in a previous photo) really a "BIRD". You guys are referring to it as such. I'm just not clear that it is.
Also, when you refer to checking "at the pin" what is "pin" referring to?

Having asked these questions, here's what I did today along with photos...
There are two identical red wires that I have recently had connected to the chassis battery positive post. The lugs on each are of a size that they would have gone to a battery post, whether chassis OR coach battery.HOWEVER today, with these wires disconnected I checked the voltage of each. Both were above 14v, telling me that they were coming from the convertor/charger. Rightly or wrongly I switched from having them BOTH connected to the chassis battery, to having one connected to chassis battery and the other connected to storage battery. So...now it would appear that both banks are charging when connected to shore power. Having both wires previously connected to the chassis battery could have been a mistake on my part.

Then I turned my attention to the so-called "BIRD". There are 7 wires. With the engine running, and using the ice pick probe of my voltmeter, I probed the wires coming out of the BIRD from top to bottom as follows:
Top 2 wires-Aux Start Light and Normal Start Light--- 14.08v
3rd wire to Starter Relay Coil---Zero Volts
4th wire to Coach battery---13.48v
5th wire to Chassis Ignition---10.98v ???
6th wire to Ground---Zero volts
7th wire to Isolator Relay Coil---Zero Volts

Relating to the 3rd wire, there is a starter 4-terminal "solenoid" mounted directly above the alternator in the engine bay (see photo).

The photo referenced as "Photo 3" shows the two circuit breakers FROM WHICH the two wires come from. One of the wires is shown in the photo. These circuit breakers and wires are mounted directly below the "BIRD" on the same metal panel.

Still have not determined if there is a fuse somewhere that's contributing to any issues.
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Old 04-30-2013, 07:39 AM   #41
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Hi Ed.
In this case "pin" = terminal.
OK. Good information.
If this is the battery isolator control you have it is not a BIRD in the true sense. It is an IRD with an automatic start assist feature.

http://www.flemingsalesoem.com/intel...300131.000.pdf

When working correctly it allows the engine alternator to charge the coach battery under certain conditions, but does not allow the coach convertor to charge the chassis batteries. I guess at that time the idea was to automatically connect the battery banks together when the chassis battery is below a certain voltage and uses the starter relay circuit as an input.
Looking over the voltages you recorded. If your running ignition voltage is 11 volts the system would want to recharge the chassis battery before providing power to the coach battery. With the engine running that voltage should be 14.5 or so.
The wires on the isolator relay should be chassis battery on one side and coach battery on the other side. If you have wires from both batteries connected to the same terminal the batteries are all hooked together and will charge and discharge together.
Could you check the ignition voltage at the IRD again while running and with the engine off. Also check chassis battery voltage at the battery. If your chassis battery is low it may be using the coach battery to help it start. Read the voltage requirements in the link. It senses chassis battery voltage from the ignition terminal. The key is the #7 terminal. When that one is powered by the IRD it closes the relay.
A BIRD uses the same relay to charge the coach batteries from the alternator, or the chassis battery from the convertor. It does not have the automatic start circuitry that yours has. BIRD is bi-directional isolator control delay. Yours doesn't appear to be bi-directional but it automatically does the same as pushing the start assist button.
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Old 04-30-2013, 09:52 AM   #42
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Tom wrote/Ed responded:
Hi Ed.
In this case "pin" = terminal.
OK. Good information.
If this is the battery isolator control you have it is not a BIRD in the true sense. It is an IRD with an automatic start assist feature.

http://www.flemingsalesoem.com/intel...300131.000.pdf

When working correctly it allows the engine alternator to charge the coach battery under certain conditions, but does not allow the coach convertor to charge the chassis batteries. I guess at that time the idea was to automatically connect the battery banks together when the chassis battery is below a certain voltage and uses the starter relay circuit as an input.
Looking over the voltages you recorded. If your running ignition voltage is 11 volts the system would want to recharge the chassis battery before providing power to the coach battery. With the engine running that voltage should be 14.5 or so. I agree. But let me clarify that the 10.98v was the reading of the "To Chassis Ignition" wire as it comes out of the IRD. Elsewhere the engine running voltage IS 14+v.
The wires on the isolator relay should be chassis battery on one side and coach battery on the other side. If you have wires from both batteries connected to the same terminal the batteries are all hooked together and will charge and discharge together. On the Isolator Relay I DO have chassis battery on one side and coach battery on the otherside--always have.
Could you check the ignition voltage at the IRD again while running and with the engine off. Yes, I will. The coach is back in storage, but I'll get over there and do it. Also check chassis battery voltage at the battery. If your chassis battery is low it may be using the coach battery to help it start. I will check it again, but I can tell you it has always been fully charged and it is NEW. Read the voltage requirements in the link. It senses chassis battery voltage from the ignition terminal. The key is the #7 terminal. When that one is powered by the IRD it closes the relay. A BIRD uses the same relay to charge the coach batteries from the alternator, or the chassis battery from the convertor. It does not have the automatic start circuitry that yours has. BIRD is bi-directional isolator control delay. Yours doesn't appear to be bi-directional but it automatically does the same as pushing the start assist button. I can tell you that throughout these tests, the #7 terminal has never been found to have power. I just don't know why. It is a short wire in good condition that runs less than 12 inches directly to the small terminal on the relay...no fuse.
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