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Old 04-30-2013, 12:25 PM   #43
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You have a Battery Isolator Controler (BIC), referred to by some as an Isolator Relay Delay (IRD). Both are intended to only allow the alternator to charge the coach batteries.
A Bi-Directional Isolator Relay Delay (BIRD) allows the alternator to charge the coach battery and the converter (or inverter/charger) to charge the chassis battery.

Top 2 wires-Aux Start Light and Normal Start Light--- 14.08v - Indicates that voltage from the 12V source has been applied to the bulbs but the BIC has not provided a path to ground to light the lamp. Under normal starting conditions, the normal start indicator light will light (0 VDC on Pin 1) when the starter is being activated and will remain on for approximately 3 seconds after starter deactivation. During cranking, should the auxiliary start function occur, the normal start indicator will go out (14 VDC on Pin 1)and the auxiliary start lamp (0 VDC on Pin 2) will come on and remain on for approximately 3 seconds after the starter deactivation.

3rd wire to Starter Relay Coil---Zero Volts - Source = Ignition switch not BIC. Will only have voltage when the ignition key is in START. Used by BIC to determine if the engine is being started.

4th wire to Coach battery---13.48v - OK as long as that is what your coach battery reads.

5th wire to Chassis Ignition---10.98v ??? - Source = ignition switch not BIC. Indicates to the BIC that the ignition switch has been turned ON. Low voltage (10.98) volts indicates dirty or corroded connections. This could be accumulative from the battery through the system to the BIC or just one single connection. AS tom indicated it would be the signal that is monitored by the BIC to determine if:
A) Does the BIC need to use AUX Start feature (chassis battery below 9 VDC) during start.
B) Has the alternator output been above 13.3VDC for at least 12 seconds. If yes, then energize the AUX solenoid so the alternator can be used to charge the coach battery. If the signal on this pin never gets above 13.3VDC with engine running (i.e. dirty connections), the BIC will not energize the relay.

6th wire to Ground---Zero volts - Normal indication as long as it is truly attached to a chassis ground.

7th wire to Isolator Relay Coil---Zero Volts - Source = BICthis is the signal the BIC sends to the solenoid to energize it.

Dave
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Old 04-30-2013, 12:29 PM   #44
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The Ignition wire voltage still concerns me as the IRD will not put power to the #7 terminal if the Ignition (chassis) voltage does not go above 13.3 volts for 12 seconds. If for whatever reason it is seeing 10.9 volts it will not connect. Please remove the wire from #7 and see what voltage is on the wire with the engine running. Check for voltage on terminal #7 also. The terminal (#7) with the wire disconnected, I think, should be 0. The wire should be running voltage. If the wire is over 14 volts and the terminal is 0, reconnect the wire and see what happens to the voltage. If it stays at the 14+ wait for the 12 seconds and see if it sends voltage to the relay. If there is no voltage on the wire when disconnected try jumping chassis voltage to the Ignition terminal on the IRD. Again wait at least 12 seconds for the relay to close. If it does close and you still show low voltage on the wire you need to try to find the high resistance or tape it up and find a reliable ignition source.
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Old 04-30-2013, 01:53 PM   #45
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I agree with everything you have explained EXCEPT, just to clarify, my bulbs are working appropriately. Am I misunderstanding what you were saying here when you say...
"but the BIC has not provided a path to ground to light the lamp."

Top 2 wires-Aux Start Light and Normal Start Light--- 14.08v
- Indicates that voltage from the 12V source has been applied to the bulbs but the BIC has not provided a path to ground to light the lamp. Under normal starting conditions, the normal start indicator light will light (0 VDC on Pin 1) when the starter is being activated and will remain on for approximately 3 seconds after starter deactivation. During cranking, should the auxiliary start function occur, the normal start indicator will go out (14 VDC on Pin 1)and the auxiliary start lamp (0 VDC on Pin 2) will come on and remain on for approximately 3 seconds after the starter deactivation.
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Old 04-30-2013, 01:57 PM   #46
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Tom:
I will do this and report back.
I'm surprised you guys have not commented on the two wires with circuit breakers that I mentioned and how I chose to connect them. I really don't see how they could be connected any other way. Of course, they would seem to have nothing to do with the IRD or Relay.
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Old 04-30-2013, 02:17 PM   #47
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Refer to the wiring diagram in manual for the BIC (last page). You will see that the left side of each bulb is connected to the positive post of the chassis battery. This means that the for each bulb the BIC provides a path to ground in order to turn on the lamp (acts as 2 independent switches; B+ to bulb to BIC switch to ground).

If you are saying the following happens:
During cranking the normal start indicator goes OUT and the auxiliary start lamp comes ON and remains on for approximately 3 seconds after the starter deactivation.

then,
that says the BIC is detecting a low chassis battery voltage condition (a problem) during engine start.


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Old 04-30-2013, 02:27 PM   #48
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Ed
I don't think the breakers or the other relay are in the IRD circuit. It may be in the starter circuit and supply the starter terminal in your IRD. You indicated the auxiliary start button will close the relay so the automatic starter boost could be working. I will go back over the post and read your comments on the breakers and relay. I think the IRD problem will be in the ignition sense wire.

Just a thought. If the IRD turns out to be defective, you have everything you need to change over to a BIRD. The controller is about $62.00. It would keep your chassis battery charged instead of providing an automatic "jump start". Although in some ways I kind of like your system.
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Old 04-30-2013, 02:43 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tompen View Post
Ed
I don't think the breakers or the other relay are in the IRD circuit. It may be in the starter circuit and supply the starter terminal in your IRD. You indicated the auxiliary start button will close the relay so the automatic starter boost could be working. I will go back over the post and read your comments on the breakers and relay. I think the IRD problem will be in the ignition sense wire.

Just a thought. If the IRD turns out to be defective, you have everything you need to change over to a BIRD. The controller is about $62.00. It would keep your chassis battery charged instead of providing an automatic "jump start". Although in some ways I kind of like your system.
Tom
I don't want to get off track here. I want to keep moving forward to solve this problem, hopefully keeping the elements/equipment that I have.

HOWEVER, remember that BLUE Cole Hersee Isolator that I purchased last week? As has been suggested here, installing THAT would change my wiring and set-up. So...I'm working on sending it back...possibly to exchange it for one of these that presumably would replace the Relay and the IRD and combine them in one. What do you and others think?
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Old 04-30-2013, 05:45 PM   #50
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Looks like that is designed to work as a BIRD. Newest and greatest I guess. 85 amp.
Looks like about $100.00. Easy to hook up.

You don't need the blue cole hersee diode setup.
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Old 04-30-2013, 09:33 PM   #51
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There are 85 amp and 200 amp versions. They are essentially the same as a BIRD. You can reuse the existing AUX start switch and one the indicator lights for status indications. BIRD or BIC does not include the solenoid. The Cole Hersee "Smart Battery Isolator" looks like a good alternative. I would go with the larger 200 amp version so that if you do have to use the Aux Start mode it is less strain on the solenoid itself.

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Old 05-01-2013, 12:05 PM   #52
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Excellent Thread

You guys have compiled some excellent information on battery isolation. Thanks for the fantastic effort.

Ed if you don't need to install the Cole-Hersee Isolator diode set, I'd be glad to buy it from you. My isolator has one bad diode in it.
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Old 05-01-2013, 02:27 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by dyates773 View Post
You guys have compiled some excellent information on battery isolation. Thanks for the fantastic effort.

Ed if you don't need to install the Cole-Hersee Isolator diode set, I'd be glad to buy it from you. My isolator has one bad diode in it.
Don: Actually, although I have not solved my problem as yet, it HAS occurred to me that this thread as it has evolved complete with photos would likely help others in the future.

As for the Cole Hersee diode isolator, I have worked out a return for a refund. But the company "DBElecric" is on ebay AND they are in Tennessee. You could get it for the same $101.00 discounted price with FREE SHIPPING. They are a lot closer to you than to me out here in California. Let me know if you have any trouble finding them on ebay or otherwise. Just search ebay for that isolator.

And thanks for joining the thread.
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Old 05-03-2013, 10:14 PM   #54
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I've been away for a few days so I haven't been keeping up with what's happening ... looks like some progress and Dave and Tom look like they have provided the info you need. However, and I could be wrong, I think there may be basic wire tracing that needs to be done. I will upload a simple logic flow diagram and hopefully you can trace the wires back to the source(s). When you look at the drawing please note that the little half-circles are used to illustrate that the line is NOT CONNECTED at that point ... it merely "hops over" the other line on the page to get somewhere else on the page. Also note that although Intellitec uses the word "TO" on their block diagram, sometimes that line is more correctly a "FROM". My drawing uses "TO" and "FROM" to indicate the direction of the signal. Please note that when I refer to "+12vdc", I actually mean whatever positive voltage is coming from your batteries ... typically around 12.6 vdc.
Note that I HAVE NOT made any attempt to indicate which SIDES of the relay have the wires ... EITHER side can be used. I have indicated the Isolator Relay (solenoid) as a simple electro-mechanical device ... the 2 small terminals go to a coil that is wrapped around a core (a plunger). When ground is supplied to one terminal and 12vdc is supplied to the other terminal, the relay is "picked" and pulls the core (plunger) into the coil. A bar with 2 contacts is attached to the core (plunger). When the bar moves, the 2 contacts make contact with contacts on the ends of the 2 LARGE terminals. This electrically connects the 2 LARGE terminals together. A heavy gauge wire on one LARGE terminal should be connected to +12vdc on the Chassis Battery. A heavy gauge wire on the other LARGE terminal should be connected to +12vdc on the House Battery. As for the 2 SMALL terminals on the relay, one of the terminals should have a wire that can be traced back to terminal 7 (bottom terminal) of the Battery Isolator Controller (we'll call it the BIC for simplicity). The other SMALL terminal on the relay should be traced back to ground. That's it .... any other wires that are connected to the relay (solenoid) will need to be physically traced and you will need to tell us where they go. It is quite possible they are incorrectly attached at one end or the other .... we won't know until you trace them. Keep in mind only 2 wires are needed to pick the relay. One wire MUST go to terminal 7 and the other wire MUST go to GROUND. On the LARGE posts of the relay, only 2 wires are needed (one on EACH of the 2 posts) and those 2 Large gauge wires MUST eventually be attached to the Chassis Battery and the Coach Battery.

Also keep in mind that a wire from the Alternator must eventually be connected to the +12vdc post on the Chassis Battery. It may be an indirect connection ... for instance, it COULD be attached to the same LARGE post on the relay as the large gauge wire from the Chassis Battery.

Please excuse my over simplification and the use of bold type and caps but I thought it important for tracing of wires and for anyone following this thread to be able to join in.

Please get back to us and let us know where ALL of the wires that are attached to the relay go. Can you provide a picture of the Isolation Relay in it's current state showing the location of all wires?

And, as pointed out, the +10vdc from the Ignition key is wrong ... it should be the same voltage as the Chassis Battery +12vdc post. This voltage is also very likely to be the "source" or power for the BIC itself since there is no other obvious power line and it could also be assumed that the BIC is not in use when the engine is not running. It is possible that the BIC is powered from the Coach battery but that would lead to a parasitic draw since it's unswitched ...

And ... I also have no idea what the circuit breakers are used for ... they are probably unrelated to the BIC.

To reiterate, the BIC only does 2 things ... and only under certain conditions ... 1) it causes a relay to connect the Chassis and Coach batteries together for charging by the Alternator or 2) it causes a relay to connect the Chassis and Coach batteries together for increased engine starting power.


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Old 05-04-2013, 01:41 AM   #55
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Bruce wrote/Ed replied in BOLD:
I've been away for a few days so I haven't been keeping up with what's happening ... looks like some progress and Dave and Tom look like they have provided the info you need. We have made progress. And, BTW, I got your PM. Thanks.

However, and I could be wrong, I think there may be basic wire tracing that needs to be done. Before you posted today, based on where we are at with all this, I had decided that FURTHER tracing was now in order. I'm bringing the coach to the house Saturday morning to do that tracing. I will report back what I find.

I will upload a simple logic flow diagram and hopefully you can trace the wires back to the source(s). When you look at the drawing please note that the little half-circles are used to illustrate that the line is NOT CONNECTED at that point ... it merely "hops over" the other line on the page to get somewhere else on the page. Also note that although Intellitec uses the word "TO" on their block diagram, sometimes that line is more correctly a "FROM". My drawing uses "TO" and "FROM" to indicate the direction of the signal. Please note that when I refer to "+12vdc", I actually mean whatever positive voltage is coming from your batteries ... typically around 12.6 vdc.
Note that I HAVE NOT made any attempt to indicate which SIDES of the relay have the wires ... EITHER side can be used. I have indicated the Isolator Relay (solenoid) as a simple electro-mechanical device ... the 2 small terminals go to a coil that is wrapped around a core (a plunger). When ground is supplied to one terminal and 12vdc is supplied to the other terminal, the relay is "picked" and pulls the core (plunger) into the coil. A bar with 2 contacts is attached to the core (plunger). When the bar moves, the 2 contacts make contact with contacts on the ends of the 2 LARGE terminals. This electrically connects the 2 LARGE terminals together. A heavy gauge wire on one LARGE terminal should be connected to +12vdc on the Chassis Battery. A heavy gauge wire on the other LARGE terminal should be connected to +12vdc on the House Battery. As for the 2 SMALL terminals on the relay, one of the terminals should have a wire that can be traced back to terminal 7 (bottom terminal) of the Battery Isolator Controller (we'll call it the BIC for simplicity). The other SMALL terminal on the relay should be traced back to ground. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the Isolator relay only has one small terminal. There are two wires connected to that one small terminal, one of which goes to terminal #7 on the BIC. I have to refresh my memory as to where the other was traced to. I'll report back regarding the other wire.

That's it .... any other wires that are connected to the relay (solenoid) will need to be physically traced and you will need to tell us where they go. It is quite possible they are incorrectly attached at one end or the other .... we won't know until you trace them. Keep in mind only 2 wires are needed to pick the relay. One wire MUST go to terminal 7 and the other wire MUST go to GROUND. On the LARGE posts of the relay, only 2 wires are needed (one on EACH of the 2 posts) and those 2 Large gauge wires MUST eventually be attached to the Chassis Battery and the Coach Battery.

Also keep in mind that a wire from the Alternator must eventually be connected to the +12vdc post on the Chassis Battery. It may be an indirect connection ... for instance, it COULD be attached to the same LARGE post on the relay as the large gauge wire from the Chassis Battery. That's exactly how it is configured.

Please excuse my over simplification and the use of bold type and caps but I thought it important for tracing of wires and for anyone following this thread to be able to join in.

Please get back to us and let us know where ALL of the wires that are attached to the relay go. I will.

Can you provide a picture of the Isolation Relay in it's current state showing the location of all wires? Here is a picture of the Isolator relay. Please note that these wires have never been touched. I am the original owner.

And, as pointed out, the +10vdc from the Ignition key is wrong ... it should be the same voltage as the Chassis Battery +12vdc post. I agree, but that IS the reading I got, and it WAS different from chassis battery voltage. I will check it again in any event.

This voltage is also very likely to be the "source" or power for the BIC itself since there is no other obvious power line and it could also be assumed that the BIC is not in use when the engine is not running. It is possible that the BIC is powered from the Coach battery but that would lead to a parasitic draw since it's unswitched ... ???? I guess we will see.

And ... I also have no idea what the circuit breakers are used for ... they are probably unrelated to the BIC. I agree. I don't believe they are related to the BIC. The reading above 14v that I got with them disconnected tells me they were coming from the convertor/charger while plugged to shore power.

To reiterate, the BIC only does 2 things ... and only under certain conditions ... 1) it causes a relay to connect the Chassis and Coach batteries together for charging by the Alternator or 2) it causes a relay to connect the Chassis and Coach batteries together for increased engine starting power.

Ed
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Old 05-04-2013, 08:03 AM   #56
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Great! ... sounds like we are all on the same page. Of the above: 1) having only one terminal on the solenoid is fine as long as the metal case is properly grounded, 2) the voltage from the ignition key is still an issue in my mind since it is below the operating spec for the BIC, and 3) the second wire (the one that DOES NOT go to terminal 7 of the BIC) needs to be identified ... it is not shown on the Intellitec wiring diagram and I can't figure out its purpose.

After we are sure where all the wires go we should be able to test the BIC by selectively removing wires from the BIC and adding a temporary jumper or two.

EDIT: After rereading a note in the Intellitec PDF, the 2nd wire on the relay "pick" terminal might go to an indicator light ... do you have an additional light (probably on the dash) that shows when the BIC is operating? ... might be labeled "Charge" or "Coach Charge" or similar. Theoretically, this would be a 3rd lamp.

From the PDF: "An alternative indicator lamp could be connected in parallel with the relay coil. This indicator would then show
when the system is either charging the coach battery or when an auxiliary start has occurred."
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